Town council accused of ‘witch hunt’ (From Keighley News)
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Town council accused of ‘witch hunt’
9:04am Thursday 6th September 2012 in News
A pair of Keighley town councillors could lose their positions on two council committees for ‘leaking’ documents about the new civic centre finances to the Keighley News.
At its meeting tonight, the full council has been asked to vote on recommendations to remove Councillor Brian Hudson from the planning committee and Coun Geraldine Stack from the finance committee.
The councillors say they understand it is because they were involved in making public a set of council financial documents marked ‘confidential’. These documents related to the finances of the new civic centre, in North Street, and their contents were publicised in the Keighley News in July.
Coun Stack described the recommendations as a “witch hunt”, while Coun Hudson said the town council had become a “dictatorship”.
However, Coun John Philip, who has put forward the removal of Coun Stack from finance, said the committee had been left with no other choice after confidential material was left insecure and then passed to the local press.
The proposals feature in the agenda for tonight’s full town council meeting in Keighley Town Hall. The first of these has been brought forward by planning committee chairman Coun Peter Corkindale and seconded by Coun Michael Westerman. The second recommends Coun Stack be taken off the finance committee and cites the same standing order. The proposer, Coun Philip, has been seconded by Coun Gary Pedley.
Coun Philip said: “Confidential information from finance was left insecure or given to another councillor. It then found its way to a member of the public and then the press.”
Responding this week, Coun Stack said: “They’re just being petty. They were obviously going to remove me from finance. They work in secrecy and now they’re getting what they want.”
Coun Hudson said: “There’s no freedom of speech anymore, there’s no debate. This is what this council has come to.”
The Keighley News put in a request for a comment to town clerk Miggy Bailey on Tuesday, but as we went to press no statement had been issued.
Keighley News editor Malcolm Hoddy said: “Should this action go ahead then it will be an extremely sad day in the history of Keighley for democracy, freedom and the precept-payers.”
Comments(34)
MorriseyRocks
says...
5:58pm Sun 9 Sep 12
I'm baffled by Malcolm Hoddy's rant. Surely the whole point of democracy is for the majority view to lead on such issues. The Town Council is well rid of Hudson as a committee member, I understand he has been removed from ALL committees. Thank goodness for this, as a starter for ten. This town will be much the better for his absence and inability to influence anything. I hope his tenure as a town councillor is the next thing to get removed. At last someone on the TC has had the strength of character to challenge his idiotic ways and make him inert. The council have gone up in my estimation. Very well done.
Graham Forsyth
says...
7:58pm Sun 9 Sep 12
I fully agree that the whole point of democracy is for the majority view to lead, so why did the Town Council not seek a mandate from the majority of Keighley people before they took out a 1.1 million pound loan to set up a civic centre that as yet the Town Council have been less than open about in regrades to it's financial position, money earned, and partners who may have now signed up for the `ambitious project`.
And just to remind the people of Keighley, back in June 17 2010 it was stating: “It has been negotiating with organisations that could occupy space in the former police station on North Street.”
December 30, 2010 people were being told: “It has predicted that the first users of the building should start moving in by the middle of next year. “
Come forwards to 26 July 2012, the people of Keighley were now being told: “The partners had not come into place on time, but those partners have now come in.”
And as recent as 20 August 2012, in answer to my F.O.I request concerning the partners, the Town Clerk replied: “The names of the partners will be revealed in September when it is hoped that commercial contracts will have been signed. “
Notice the wording, hoped, that signifies they have not signed at the time of her reply. So from 2010 up to the present time there is no visible income having been generated by the new civic centre. And in case your wondering about the new sources of income that will cover expenditure that Alan Parry mentioned to the Keighley News, on the 26 July 2012, according to the Town Clerk's reply to my enquiry into these, NONE exist.
No one who truly understands the full meaning of democracy would be baffled by Malcolm Hoddy's comments, nor his decision to make public the Town Councils own classified documents showing significance loses for the new civic centre.
And just to remind the people of Keighley, back in June 17 2010 it was stating: “It has been negotiating with organisations that could occupy space in the former police station on North Street.”
December 30, 2010 people were being told: “It has predicted that the first users of the building should start moving in by the middle of next year. “
Come forwards to 26 July 2012, the people of Keighley were now being told: “The partners had not come into place on time, but those partners have now come in.”
And as recent as 20 August 2012, in answer to my F.O.I request concerning the partners, the Town Clerk replied: “The names of the partners will be revealed in September when it is hoped that commercial contracts will have been signed. “
Notice the wording, hoped, that signifies they have not signed at the time of her reply. So from 2010 up to the present time there is no visible income having been generated by the new civic centre. And in case your wondering about the new sources of income that will cover expenditure that Alan Parry mentioned to the Keighley News, on the 26 July 2012, according to the Town Clerk's reply to my enquiry into these, NONE exist.
No one who truly understands the full meaning of democracy would be baffled by Malcolm Hoddy's comments, nor his decision to make public the Town Councils own classified documents showing significance loses for the new civic centre.
jimmy k
says...
8:03pm Sun 9 Sep 12
oh god here we go again,is no-body in this town interested in anything other then the town council that is lets face it an irrelevance to 99.9% of the town and it's multitude of problems.
samuels david
says...
10:15pm Sun 9 Sep 12
cronk stanley: My wife and I had spent this afternoon in Morecambe, Classic Motors and antiques Motor Bikes.
Half an hour after our arrival, an unknown elderly man, who obviously knew me by sight approached and informed me that as a resident of Oakworth he was ashamed of the Keighley Town Council organization and its lack of principles.
That, this gentleman shook my hand and then praised Mr. Hoddy, who he had met, and in his view was one of the few honest men, in the town, and who without insulting or smearing others had tried to raise the standard of public debate, and failed.
This was no reflection this person believed on those of us who had tried but on the low ethics in society in general, of today.
I mentioned Mr. Graham Forsyth, a person I had once seen in a meeting but have never spoken with in person, as the possible flag carrier for truth and civility.
The unknown gentleman was not convinced one man could salvage the lost good name of Keighley and as he walked away from us, he stated that in his view, the self-centered few of today, only care about themselves. Sadly, how true!
David Samuels
Half an hour after our arrival, an unknown elderly man, who obviously knew me by sight approached and informed me that as a resident of Oakworth he was ashamed of the Keighley Town Council organization and its lack of principles.
That, this gentleman shook my hand and then praised Mr. Hoddy, who he had met, and in his view was one of the few honest men, in the town, and who without insulting or smearing others had tried to raise the standard of public debate, and failed.
This was no reflection this person believed on those of us who had tried but on the low ethics in society in general, of today.
I mentioned Mr. Graham Forsyth, a person I had once seen in a meeting but have never spoken with in person, as the possible flag carrier for truth and civility.
The unknown gentleman was not convinced one man could salvage the lost good name of Keighley and as he walked away from us, he stated that in his view, the self-centered few of today, only care about themselves. Sadly, how true!
David Samuels
Graham Forsyth
says...
7:44am Mon 10 Sep 12
immy k says...
8:03pm Sun 9 Sep 12
"oh god here we go again,is no-body in this town interested in anything other then the town council that is lets face it an irrelevance to 99.9% of the town and it's multitude of problems."
There is no doubt Keighley has it's problems, what the persecuted councillors Brian Hudson, and Ron Beale have have tried to do is bring to the attention of the public another possible problem that has the potential to effect %1000 of the towns population if the civic centre is not self financing. Cllr Geraldine Stack has been removed from the finance committee on the grounds she left official council documents unsecured in her own home? How many of use treat our homes as secure? Cllr Beale has admitted he was the one who helped to release the information so why was Cllr Stack held responsible?
The new civic centre is shrouded in mystery in regards to it's present financial status. Look at what the Keighley people have been told:
22nd July 2010
“Mr Parry explained the venture should be self-financing, with income provided by the businesses and social groups which would use the building.
He said the contracts with these organisations were being negotiated, so their names could not yet be revealed.
He stressed the old police station’s purchase would not require an increase in the town council’s precept and would lead to the creation of at least 30 jobs. “
The people of Keighley are still being told the exact same message in 2012.
Cllr Metcalf has stated in the Keighley News “ August 2012, that the “committed expected expenses per year for the civic centre will be £212,000.” That is approximately £18,000 per month.
If anyone had taken the time to save the Income and Expenditure accounts for year ending 31 March 2011 and 31 March 2012 from K.T.C website, they would be able to work out the following.
Income and Expenditure Account for year ended 31 March 2011.
Operating Income: Civic Centre = £1,100,250
Running Costs: Civic Centre = £279,137.
Subtracting Running Costs from Operating Income leave a £821,113.
Income and Expenditure Account for year ended 31 March 2012.
Operating Income: Civic Centre = £47,810.
Expenditure (running costs): Civic Centre = £879,736.
Subtract Operating Income £47,810 from the Expenditure £879,7
36 leaves £831,926.
For some reason the accounts for 2012 do not show the balance of £821,113 from 2011 being brought forward. If however you subtract the 2011 balance of £821,113 from the 2012 expenditure of £831,926 it leaves £10,813 remaining from the loan. That was the position in March, it is now September, five months later and still we do not know if all the needed partners have signed up for the civic centre. Meanwhile the running cost for those five months at approximately £18,000 per month have to be paid, which comes to £90,000, and so far K.T.C have given no figures of what income the civic centre has generated .
Now people may better understand the concerns of Cllr Brian Hudson and Ron Beale when they made known the two classified K.T.C documents which showed significant loses for May and June, and a warning that “unless there is a was a vast amount of income generated, it would be the Town Council's reserves that will be supporting the shortfall.”
If the civic centre fails the 1.1 million pound loan, plus interest, has still to be paid back and it will be the people of Keighley who will have to pay it back over the next fifty years. Surely ,in the public’s interest this needed to be made known.
8:03pm Sun 9 Sep 12
"oh god here we go again,is no-body in this town interested in anything other then the town council that is lets face it an irrelevance to 99.9% of the town and it's multitude of problems."
There is no doubt Keighley has it's problems, what the persecuted councillors Brian Hudson, and Ron Beale have have tried to do is bring to the attention of the public another possible problem that has the potential to effect %1000 of the towns population if the civic centre is not self financing. Cllr Geraldine Stack has been removed from the finance committee on the grounds she left official council documents unsecured in her own home? How many of use treat our homes as secure? Cllr Beale has admitted he was the one who helped to release the information so why was Cllr Stack held responsible?
The new civic centre is shrouded in mystery in regards to it's present financial status. Look at what the Keighley people have been told:
22nd July 2010
“Mr Parry explained the venture should be self-financing, with income provided by the businesses and social groups which would use the building.
He said the contracts with these organisations were being negotiated, so their names could not yet be revealed.
He stressed the old police station’s purchase would not require an increase in the town council’s precept and would lead to the creation of at least 30 jobs. “
The people of Keighley are still being told the exact same message in 2012.
Cllr Metcalf has stated in the Keighley News “ August 2012, that the “committed expected expenses per year for the civic centre will be £212,000.” That is approximately £18,000 per month.
If anyone had taken the time to save the Income and Expenditure accounts for year ending 31 March 2011 and 31 March 2012 from K.T.C website, they would be able to work out the following.
Income and Expenditure Account for year ended 31 March 2011.
Operating Income: Civic Centre = £1,100,250
Running Costs: Civic Centre = £279,137.
Subtracting Running Costs from Operating Income leave a £821,113.
Income and Expenditure Account for year ended 31 March 2012.
Operating Income: Civic Centre = £47,810.
Expenditure (running costs): Civic Centre = £879,736.
Subtract Operating Income £47,810 from the Expenditure £879,7
36 leaves £831,926.
For some reason the accounts for 2012 do not show the balance of £821,113 from 2011 being brought forward. If however you subtract the 2011 balance of £821,113 from the 2012 expenditure of £831,926 it leaves £10,813 remaining from the loan. That was the position in March, it is now September, five months later and still we do not know if all the needed partners have signed up for the civic centre. Meanwhile the running cost for those five months at approximately £18,000 per month have to be paid, which comes to £90,000, and so far K.T.C have given no figures of what income the civic centre has generated .
Now people may better understand the concerns of Cllr Brian Hudson and Ron Beale when they made known the two classified K.T.C documents which showed significant loses for May and June, and a warning that “unless there is a was a vast amount of income generated, it would be the Town Council's reserves that will be supporting the shortfall.”
If the civic centre fails the 1.1 million pound loan, plus interest, has still to be paid back and it will be the people of Keighley who will have to pay it back over the next fifty years. Surely ,in the public’s interest this needed to be made known.
Graham Forsyth
says...
9:20am Mon 10 Sep 12
Correction to my post.
If however you subtract the 2011 balance of £821,113 from the 2012 expenditure of £831,926 it leaves £10,813 remaining from the loan.
It should read;
If however you subtract the 2011 balance of £821,113 from the 2012 expenditure of £831,926 it leaves £10,813 deficit, with nothing remaining from the loan.
If however you subtract the 2011 balance of £821,113 from the 2012 expenditure of £831,926 it leaves £10,813 remaining from the loan.
It should read;
If however you subtract the 2011 balance of £821,113 from the 2012 expenditure of £831,926 it leaves £10,813 deficit, with nothing remaining from the loan.
jimmy k
says...
5:50pm Mon 10 Sep 12
samuels david wrote:david,your getting yourself mixed up you wrote as cronk stanley on the other thread,you really must learn to keep tabs of yourself.
cronk stanley: My wife and I had spent this afternoon in Morecambe, Classic Motors and antiques Motor Bikes. Half an hour after our arrival, an unknown elderly man, who obviously knew me by sight approached and informed me that as a resident of Oakworth he was ashamed of the Keighley Town Council organization and its lack of principles. That, this gentleman shook my hand and then praised Mr. Hoddy, who he had met, and in his view was one of the few honest men, in the town, and who without insulting or smearing others had tried to raise the standard of public debate, and failed. This was no reflection this person believed on those of us who had tried but on the low ethics in society in general, of today. I mentioned Mr. Graham Forsyth, a person I had once seen in a meeting but have never spoken with in person, as the possible flag carrier for truth and civility. The unknown gentleman was not convinced one man could salvage the lost good name of Keighley and as he walked away from us, he stated that in his view, the self-centered few of today, only care about themselves. Sadly, how true! David Samuels
Graham Forsyth
says...
6:57pm Mon 10 Sep 12
Auntyarrogance says...
7:36pm Fri 7 Sep 12
"So Cllr Hudson wants freedom of speech. It seems every time that man opens his mouth he offends someone, or gets it wrong, badly. If he thinks it is acceptable to leak commercially confidential material to embarrass his fellow councillors it shows just how morally BANKRUPT he is. I applaud the Council for getting rid of him, and I hope he is investigated for it and dealt with under standards etc. Isn't everyone totally tired of this man by now. What a disgrace for elected office...again."
Councillors are elected into office by the people of the ward they are standing for. The first responsibility of any elected councillor is to the people who elected them onto the council. Any councillor seeing the council is not acting in the best interest of the electorate who raises objections in council or makes public their concerns, is not embarrassing their fellow councillors, they are representing the people who elected them. All too often elected officials lose sight of this and they go along with the party line, even if it is too the detriment of the electorate. Does the Liberal Democrat leaderNick Clegg ring any bells, or the war criminal Tony Blair, formerly of New Labour. Did anyone vote for what these two have wrought while in public office?
The council you are willing to applaud are responsible for this situation, and instead of being open with councillors and the public, they resort to threatening the Keighley News with legal action, and removing councillors from off committees. That is what is morally BANKRUPT,and these uncalled for actions against councillors representing their ward justify what Cllrs Hudson and Beale have done. They should be applauded for having the principals and back bone to go public with an issue that is of importance to the people of Keighley.
David Samuels said;
“That, this gentleman shook my hand and then praised Mr. Hoddy, who he had met, and in his view was one of the few honest men, in the town, and who without insulting or smearing others had tried to raise the standard of public debate, and failed.
ibid
I mentioned Mr. Graham Forsyth, a person I had once seen in a meeting but have never spoken with in person, as the possible flag carrier for truth and civility. “
While I do not see that I warrant such comment, what is clear here is that no one person can take on the onus of trying to clean up a system of governance that has lost it's direction. That needs the public to make their voices heard,and if the public would only start to ask questions of the Town Council in regards to the issues made public by Cllrs Hudson and Beale, this Town Council could be made more accountable to the people of Keighley.
7:36pm Fri 7 Sep 12
"So Cllr Hudson wants freedom of speech. It seems every time that man opens his mouth he offends someone, or gets it wrong, badly. If he thinks it is acceptable to leak commercially confidential material to embarrass his fellow councillors it shows just how morally BANKRUPT he is. I applaud the Council for getting rid of him, and I hope he is investigated for it and dealt with under standards etc. Isn't everyone totally tired of this man by now. What a disgrace for elected office...again."
Councillors are elected into office by the people of the ward they are standing for. The first responsibility of any elected councillor is to the people who elected them onto the council. Any councillor seeing the council is not acting in the best interest of the electorate who raises objections in council or makes public their concerns, is not embarrassing their fellow councillors, they are representing the people who elected them. All too often elected officials lose sight of this and they go along with the party line, even if it is too the detriment of the electorate. Does the Liberal Democrat leaderNick Clegg ring any bells, or the war criminal Tony Blair, formerly of New Labour. Did anyone vote for what these two have wrought while in public office?
The council you are willing to applaud are responsible for this situation, and instead of being open with councillors and the public, they resort to threatening the Keighley News with legal action, and removing councillors from off committees. That is what is morally BANKRUPT,and these uncalled for actions against councillors representing their ward justify what Cllrs Hudson and Beale have done. They should be applauded for having the principals and back bone to go public with an issue that is of importance to the people of Keighley.
David Samuels said;
“That, this gentleman shook my hand and then praised Mr. Hoddy, who he had met, and in his view was one of the few honest men, in the town, and who without insulting or smearing others had tried to raise the standard of public debate, and failed.
ibid
I mentioned Mr. Graham Forsyth, a person I had once seen in a meeting but have never spoken with in person, as the possible flag carrier for truth and civility. “
While I do not see that I warrant such comment, what is clear here is that no one person can take on the onus of trying to clean up a system of governance that has lost it's direction. That needs the public to make their voices heard,and if the public would only start to ask questions of the Town Council in regards to the issues made public by Cllrs Hudson and Beale, this Town Council could be made more accountable to the people of Keighley.
Auntyarrogance
says...
9:16pm Mon 10 Sep 12
Oh dear Mr Forsyth does appear to have taken the Hudson / Beale shilling doesn't he. Of course it is morally bankrupt to leak confidential material, if it had been done to cause him (Cllr Hudson / Beale) discomfort he would be the first calling for someones head.They acted not for transparency for the voters of Keighley, or 'rabble rousers' as Cllr Hudson prefers them as, but in furtherance of their own personal agenda. I do applaud those other councillors with the moral courage to challenge these people. I suppose as an acolyte of Hudson / Beale Mr Forsyth never will.
Graham Forsyth
says...
7:34am Tue 11 Sep 12
Taking personalities out of this argument, the lack of openness by K.T.C, in regards to the civic centre has brought about this situation. As a concerned member of the public I have made my voice heard and have asked questions of K.T.C which I am entitled to do.
The double standards being practices here by K.T.C is a clear example of what is wrong with this council. Cllrs Hudson and Beale did what they saw as their civic duty in the interest of the public and have now been made to pay the price.
Meanwhile K.T.C special project co-ordinator, Alan Parry, after misleading the Keighley News, and thus the public, by stating new sources of income exist that will cover the expenditure of the civic centre, being refuted by the Town Clerk, no action appears to have been taken against this individual. I have not read of K.T.C correcting Alan Parry's misleading statement through the Keighley News, and I have not read of any Town Councillor calling for his removal as special projects co-ordinator.
The question here that members of the public need to be asking is why Alan Parry saw the need to make a misleading statement in regards to the financial position of the new civic centre if as Cllr Metcalf has stated, the civic centre finances are not in a loss situation. And if the civic centre finances are not in a loss situation why the need to draft out two classified document showing a large deficit of £10,750 for May and £54,840 for June, which did not include the running costs. Annual running cost given for the civic centre are £212,000 per year, which works out at approximately £18,000 per month. That makes the May deficit at £28,750 and the June deficit at £72,840. And we also have the warning from K.T.C, that: “Unless there is a vast amount of income generated, it will be the Town Council reserves that will be supporting the shortfall.”
Further, no income seems to have been generated by the civic centre. I asked what income had been generated by the civic centre to date, the Town Clerk directed me to the statement made by Cllr Metcalf in the Keighley News: 2 August 2012
“It is anticipated the annual minimum expected income will be £219,000; the committed expected expenses per year for the civic centre will be £212,000. These figures do not include any profit share and are based on `worst case scenario` figures.”
I am sure you will see that this did not answer my question, as an anticipated expected income is not what has been generated so far. My question has been sent back to the Town Clerk for a proper answer, failure to do so and I will take it to the Information Commissioners Office
There is nothing in any of the replies and statements made by K.T.C that are reassuring. Anticipated and expected income and new source of income that do not exist, that is all the people of Keighley are being given.
If K.T.C are serious about cleaning up public office, then Alan Parry should be removed and the council should now make clear just what the financial position of the civic centre truly is.
The double standards being practices here by K.T.C is a clear example of what is wrong with this council. Cllrs Hudson and Beale did what they saw as their civic duty in the interest of the public and have now been made to pay the price.
Meanwhile K.T.C special project co-ordinator, Alan Parry, after misleading the Keighley News, and thus the public, by stating new sources of income exist that will cover the expenditure of the civic centre, being refuted by the Town Clerk, no action appears to have been taken against this individual. I have not read of K.T.C correcting Alan Parry's misleading statement through the Keighley News, and I have not read of any Town Councillor calling for his removal as special projects co-ordinator.
The question here that members of the public need to be asking is why Alan Parry saw the need to make a misleading statement in regards to the financial position of the new civic centre if as Cllr Metcalf has stated, the civic centre finances are not in a loss situation. And if the civic centre finances are not in a loss situation why the need to draft out two classified document showing a large deficit of £10,750 for May and £54,840 for June, which did not include the running costs. Annual running cost given for the civic centre are £212,000 per year, which works out at approximately £18,000 per month. That makes the May deficit at £28,750 and the June deficit at £72,840. And we also have the warning from K.T.C, that: “Unless there is a vast amount of income generated, it will be the Town Council reserves that will be supporting the shortfall.”
Further, no income seems to have been generated by the civic centre. I asked what income had been generated by the civic centre to date, the Town Clerk directed me to the statement made by Cllr Metcalf in the Keighley News: 2 August 2012
“It is anticipated the annual minimum expected income will be £219,000; the committed expected expenses per year for the civic centre will be £212,000. These figures do not include any profit share and are based on `worst case scenario` figures.”
I am sure you will see that this did not answer my question, as an anticipated expected income is not what has been generated so far. My question has been sent back to the Town Clerk for a proper answer, failure to do so and I will take it to the Information Commissioners Office
There is nothing in any of the replies and statements made by K.T.C that are reassuring. Anticipated and expected income and new source of income that do not exist, that is all the people of Keighley are being given.
If K.T.C are serious about cleaning up public office, then Alan Parry should be removed and the council should now make clear just what the financial position of the civic centre truly is.
samuels david
says...
10:55am Tue 11 Sep 12
Mr. Graham Forsyth's brilliant analysts of the Keighley Town Council’s total mismanagement of the entire Civic Centre fiasco unfortunately should have gone further.
It is my belief the total and utter failure and subsequent financial culpability of this Council has been in its structure.
The ultimate responsibility for what I see as gross negligence is that Council members, past and present allowed the Council to be organized and run without full debates in council.
This allowed a ‘clique’ to be formed,then refused to acknowledge any other voice except its own.
This clique showed scant regard for those others in council who had the effrontery of offering differing views, views, views which should have been looked at and not brushed aside, with distain and gobbledygook of the smoke and mirror technique, which has been used shamefully in the past when trying to elicit information from this Council.
As I have indicated, Mr. Graham Forsyth has my total support.
As stated however, I would go further, all those members of staff, the ‘Project Officer’, the council members who voted and are therefore responsible for the Civic Centre should be honorable, and resign.
Those who have allowed and voted for a convicted felon to become a Deputy Chairman of a committee dealing with matters appertaining to police matters should also look at themselves.
They should ask the question, how could they vote off two councilors from committees, who allegedly tried to keep constituents informed of what the council was doing in their name, whilst allowing a person with a police record to become an a mouthpiece for this council, and in doing so has made the Keighley Town Council a national laughing stock!
DAVID SAMUELS
It is my belief the total and utter failure and subsequent financial culpability of this Council has been in its structure.
The ultimate responsibility for what I see as gross negligence is that Council members, past and present allowed the Council to be organized and run without full debates in council.
This allowed a ‘clique’ to be formed,then refused to acknowledge any other voice except its own.
This clique showed scant regard for those others in council who had the effrontery of offering differing views, views, views which should have been looked at and not brushed aside, with distain and gobbledygook of the smoke and mirror technique, which has been used shamefully in the past when trying to elicit information from this Council.
As I have indicated, Mr. Graham Forsyth has my total support.
As stated however, I would go further, all those members of staff, the ‘Project Officer’, the council members who voted and are therefore responsible for the Civic Centre should be honorable, and resign.
Those who have allowed and voted for a convicted felon to become a Deputy Chairman of a committee dealing with matters appertaining to police matters should also look at themselves.
They should ask the question, how could they vote off two councilors from committees, who allegedly tried to keep constituents informed of what the council was doing in their name, whilst allowing a person with a police record to become an a mouthpiece for this council, and in doing so has made the Keighley Town Council a national laughing stock!
DAVID SAMUELS
cronk stanley
says...
6:39pm Tue 11 Sep 12
Graham Forsyth, David Samuels.
There are always those who want to reduce others to their own level.
Lets us then salute Hudson and Beale, who did what needed to be done.
Lets also disregard the comments of any councillors, who I suspect post on this site, who are so arrogant as to deny us, the general public, the right to know, let alone have audacity question how our money is being spent.
SHAME ON THE TOWN COUNCIL !
There are always those who want to reduce others to their own level.
Lets us then salute Hudson and Beale, who did what needed to be done.
Lets also disregard the comments of any councillors, who I suspect post on this site, who are so arrogant as to deny us, the general public, the right to know, let alone have audacity question how our money is being spent.
SHAME ON THE TOWN COUNCIL !
samuels david
says...
8:55pm Tue 11 Sep 12
cronk stanley: Steady young man! You’ll be getting a name as a firebrand and that will not get you anywhere in the higher echelons of Keighley Town Council hierarchy. No trips or expenses, no pictures on the wall, no gold badges, no robes or salutations from those below your status. The word shame you used is not a word some of this these council members understand. Don't worry about principles, pride, honesty, responsibility, these terms are ‘verboten’ in the higher reaches of some of the disgraceful council members. So possibly your comment will hinder your advancement up the expensive council flag poles, where you as a member of the ‘elite’ can look done on the poor, the needy, sick and dispirited, who had once thought only honourable people worked for the good of humanity. cronk stanley, I am allowed to place my full name, sex and age on this site, and from emails I received the world over since 2002 the world has heard of those who control and manipulated the Keighley Council. Everything the hierarchy has over past years had vainly tried to hide. Unbelievably I have made many friends and a book has been the result, which soon, I hope, will be available on ‘Amazon Kindle’. As much as I have greatly admired the former editor of this newspaper, it has to be said no way would he have allowed me to really say what I wanted. Therefore my anger at the poison manufactured by the few council members those who have made a mockery of democracy in Keighley have been channelled into a five hundred-page work. Council members will obviously use public expenses if they wish to purchase, but the proceeds will help out Keighley charities, so who says you can’t make a ‘silk purse out of a sow’s ear.’
David Samuels
David Samuels
samuels david
says...
9:10pm Tue 11 Sep 12
Mr. Graham Forsyth, I can assure you your message is read by many people around the world and is also then sent back to the UK where it the actions of Keighley Town Council is disgust, or should that word be discussed.
David Samuels
David Samuels
Graham Forsyth
says...
7:55am Wed 12 Sep 12
From K.T.C's own financial documents for year ending 2011 and 2012, the given operating income of £1,100.250 for the civic centre, by 31 March 2012 can be calculated to show a deficit of £10,813. At £18,000 per month running costs, the last five months from April to August will have cost £90,000. K.T.C have stated in a reply to my freedom if information request sent on the 31 July 2012 that: “The funding for the Civic Centre was provided by the Public Works Loans Board together with part funding from the sale of allotment land.” On 30 December 2010 K.T.C were also saying to the Keighley News. “Keighley Town Council is funding the £1.1 million project through grants and loans, which it aims to recoup from the rent paid by future occupiers “ So is the funding by way of grants and loans, or loans and allotment sale money , or loans, grants and allotment sale money?
Worryingly, despite the numerous cited sources of income for setting up the new civic centre, it would appear from the evidence that K.T.C are relying on partners coming in by this September in order to secure financing for the civic centre. As yet, no announcement has been made that any have signed up. Asking K.T.C: “How many partners Keighley Town Council had calculated would be needed to cover the running costs of the new civic centre.” K.T.C replied `Five`
Having obtained that figure we now need to come back to the statement made by Cllr Metcalf to the Keighley News on the 2 August 2012.
“It is anticipated the annual minimum expected income will be £219,000; the committed expected expenses per year for the civic centre will be £212,000. These figures do not include any profit share and are based on `worst case scenario` figures.”
This would suggest that the five partners, without the profit share, allotment sale money, loan, or grants,would cover the annual running costs of £212,000. It may not be a simple matter of dividing the £212,000 per year running costs equally between the five partners as K.T.C also informed me that: “All contracts have been individually designed to suit the company taking up residence.”
K.T.C have said that partners will be revealed this September. Will that revelation include all five partners? If not, then full financing for the civic centre will not have been secured as planned by K.T.C. to cover a worst case scenario. If full financing is not attained by having all five partners sign contracts, where will the needed finance come from to make up the shortfall?
It will be interesting to see if K.T.C announce any, or all five partners having signed contracts for the full twelve months.
P.S.
I hope David and cronk stanley that our local town folks, as well as the global folk, start asking questions from Keighley Town Council. This information needs to be kept in the public domain, otherwise the principled actions of Cllrs Hudson and Beale will have been in vain. Let us keep the postings civil and as factual as we can, based on the scant evidence that K.T.C have been reluctant to provide. This is the best way we can offer our support to Cllrs Hudson and Beale, and the people of Keighley.
Worryingly, despite the numerous cited sources of income for setting up the new civic centre, it would appear from the evidence that K.T.C are relying on partners coming in by this September in order to secure financing for the civic centre. As yet, no announcement has been made that any have signed up. Asking K.T.C: “How many partners Keighley Town Council had calculated would be needed to cover the running costs of the new civic centre.” K.T.C replied `Five`
Having obtained that figure we now need to come back to the statement made by Cllr Metcalf to the Keighley News on the 2 August 2012.
“It is anticipated the annual minimum expected income will be £219,000; the committed expected expenses per year for the civic centre will be £212,000. These figures do not include any profit share and are based on `worst case scenario` figures.”
This would suggest that the five partners, without the profit share, allotment sale money, loan, or grants,would cover the annual running costs of £212,000. It may not be a simple matter of dividing the £212,000 per year running costs equally between the five partners as K.T.C also informed me that: “All contracts have been individually designed to suit the company taking up residence.”
K.T.C have said that partners will be revealed this September. Will that revelation include all five partners? If not, then full financing for the civic centre will not have been secured as planned by K.T.C. to cover a worst case scenario. If full financing is not attained by having all five partners sign contracts, where will the needed finance come from to make up the shortfall?
It will be interesting to see if K.T.C announce any, or all five partners having signed contracts for the full twelve months.
P.S.
I hope David and cronk stanley that our local town folks, as well as the global folk, start asking questions from Keighley Town Council. This information needs to be kept in the public domain, otherwise the principled actions of Cllrs Hudson and Beale will have been in vain. Let us keep the postings civil and as factual as we can, based on the scant evidence that K.T.C have been reluctant to provide. This is the best way we can offer our support to Cllrs Hudson and Beale, and the people of Keighley.
samuels david
says...
8:56am Wed 12 Sep 12
Mr. Graham Forsyth.
I would agree postings regarding Keighley Town Council are always needed to be civil and as factual as possible, however over the years I would admit like others, I have make mistakes, for which I have always fully apologized, unlike some Council members.
I have over the past years, sought, on numerous occasions, as a Town Councilor and as a member of the public sought rapprochement with members of the council hierarchy but have been sneered at, (a copy of a letter from a leading Councilor is available.)
What surprises me is that within certain quarters, it is assumed there is a modicum of intellectual ability within KTC, yet the basic tenant of fact, is that truth will always out, however long it takes, and yet is totally ignored in KTC.
Some of the Keighley Councilors still have principles, and have not as yet fully yielded to the pressures of the bullies within the Council, so of course, Clr’s Hudson and Geraldine Beale efforts will receive support.
The gang of bullies and lies have seemingly stayed silent as slowly the reality is that truth is emerging.
In fact for the past two weeks nobody associated with KTC, as far as I’m aware, has had lies published in this newspaper. Instigated cowardly anonymous innuendoes or reported me to the tax authorities, or as a ‘good religious God fearing man’ has done, manhandled me and shouted disgusting language towards me outside the Bow Street Town Hall, so things must be looking good for the truth I talk about.
Mr. Forsyth, I honestly believe Clr’s Hudson and Geraldine Beale will be remembered long after this sad and disgraceful episode has been cleansed.
David Samuels
I would agree postings regarding Keighley Town Council are always needed to be civil and as factual as possible, however over the years I would admit like others, I have make mistakes, for which I have always fully apologized, unlike some Council members.
I have over the past years, sought, on numerous occasions, as a Town Councilor and as a member of the public sought rapprochement with members of the council hierarchy but have been sneered at, (a copy of a letter from a leading Councilor is available.)
What surprises me is that within certain quarters, it is assumed there is a modicum of intellectual ability within KTC, yet the basic tenant of fact, is that truth will always out, however long it takes, and yet is totally ignored in KTC.
Some of the Keighley Councilors still have principles, and have not as yet fully yielded to the pressures of the bullies within the Council, so of course, Clr’s Hudson and Geraldine Beale efforts will receive support.
The gang of bullies and lies have seemingly stayed silent as slowly the reality is that truth is emerging.
In fact for the past two weeks nobody associated with KTC, as far as I’m aware, has had lies published in this newspaper. Instigated cowardly anonymous innuendoes or reported me to the tax authorities, or as a ‘good religious God fearing man’ has done, manhandled me and shouted disgusting language towards me outside the Bow Street Town Hall, so things must be looking good for the truth I talk about.
Mr. Forsyth, I honestly believe Clr’s Hudson and Geraldine Beale will be remembered long after this sad and disgraceful episode has been cleansed.
David Samuels
samuels david
says...
9:16am Wed 12 Sep 12
Whoops!
I have just made another mistake, so my apologies to Cllr Geraldine Stack.
The line should have said ‘so of course, Clr’s Hudson, Geraldine Stack and Beale’ Not as I had posted, sorry!
(Peter, thanks for the phone call.)
David Samuels
I have just made another mistake, so my apologies to Cllr Geraldine Stack.
The line should have said ‘so of course, Clr’s Hudson, Geraldine Stack and Beale’ Not as I had posted, sorry!
(Peter, thanks for the phone call.)
David Samuels
jimmy k
says...
12:20pm Wed 12 Sep 12
it must make a pleasant change having a conversation with a real person for a change david rather then yourself via one of your many aliasis.(i'm talking about graham not cronk obviously)
Graham Forsyth
says...
2:12pm Wed 12 Sep 12
It is well worth looking back on what was said by K.T.C's in relation to the new civic centre.
Keighley News 17th June 2010
“The town council will not yet reveal the names of businesses and agencies that have agreed to join the ambitious project.
But Cllr Philip insists Keighley people should not see an increase on the precept, the annual tax they pay to the town council.
Cllr Philip said: “It would hopefully be a self-financing venture.
“We envisage that the income it generates will pay off the lump sum over a period of time.
“The worst-case scenario would be that we use existing budgets to prop it up.”
Keighley News 22 July 2010
“Mr Parry explained the venture should be self-financing, with income provided by the businesses and social groups which would use the building.”
Keighley News 30 December 2010
“It has predicted that the first users of the building should start moving in by the middle of next year.”
Keighley News 26 July 2012
“Mr Parry said ... new sources of income will cover the expenditure.
…. because of the incomes which were due in over the next few months, it would all balance out.
At the moment we are not in a loss situation. We have covered everything.”
Keighley News 2 August 2012
“The civic centre finances have not been in a loss situation and to date are still in the black”
The people of Keighley, who need to understand they are the surety for the 1.1 million pounds loan, plus interest, which Alan Parry has stated will be around 2.7 million pound paid back over fifty years, have been told the civic centre would be, hopefully self financing,`self financing` worst-case scenario existing budgets would prop it up, all would balance out, have everything covered, and civic centre finances still in the black to date.
According to the: Parish and Town Council Borrowing Approval Scheme, under heading; Borrowing Limit, it say:
“There is no national limit on the total annual amount of borrowing available to local councils in England and it is hoped that councils will only apply for borrowing approval when they are fully ready to do so.”
http://www.communiti
es.gov.uk/localgover
nment/localgovernmen
tfinance/capitalfina
nce/parishtowncounci
l/
Do the above statements show a K.T.C that was ready to take on this loan?
If the people of Keighley do not start asking questions of this Town Council, then they need to start hoping, along with K.T.C and Alan Parry, that the civic enter does become self financing, otherwise they will be paying back the 2.7 million pounds over the next fifty years. This is what Cllrs Hudson and Beale tried to bring to the attention of the public and they have been admonished by K.T.C for doing so, and removed from off committees, along with Cllr Geraldine Stack. They spoke out for the people of Keighley, now the people of Keighley need to speak out for them.
Keighley News 17th June 2010
“The town council will not yet reveal the names of businesses and agencies that have agreed to join the ambitious project.
But Cllr Philip insists Keighley people should not see an increase on the precept, the annual tax they pay to the town council.
Cllr Philip said: “It would hopefully be a self-financing venture.
“We envisage that the income it generates will pay off the lump sum over a period of time.
“The worst-case scenario would be that we use existing budgets to prop it up.”
Keighley News 22 July 2010
“Mr Parry explained the venture should be self-financing, with income provided by the businesses and social groups which would use the building.”
Keighley News 30 December 2010
“It has predicted that the first users of the building should start moving in by the middle of next year.”
Keighley News 26 July 2012
“Mr Parry said ... new sources of income will cover the expenditure.
…. because of the incomes which were due in over the next few months, it would all balance out.
At the moment we are not in a loss situation. We have covered everything.”
Keighley News 2 August 2012
“The civic centre finances have not been in a loss situation and to date are still in the black”
The people of Keighley, who need to understand they are the surety for the 1.1 million pounds loan, plus interest, which Alan Parry has stated will be around 2.7 million pound paid back over fifty years, have been told the civic centre would be, hopefully self financing,`self financing` worst-case scenario existing budgets would prop it up, all would balance out, have everything covered, and civic centre finances still in the black to date.
According to the: Parish and Town Council Borrowing Approval Scheme, under heading; Borrowing Limit, it say:
“There is no national limit on the total annual amount of borrowing available to local councils in England and it is hoped that councils will only apply for borrowing approval when they are fully ready to do so.”
http://www.communiti
es.gov.uk/localgover
nment/localgovernmen
tfinance/capitalfina
nce/parishtowncounci
l/
Do the above statements show a K.T.C that was ready to take on this loan?
If the people of Keighley do not start asking questions of this Town Council, then they need to start hoping, along with K.T.C and Alan Parry, that the civic enter does become self financing, otherwise they will be paying back the 2.7 million pounds over the next fifty years. This is what Cllrs Hudson and Beale tried to bring to the attention of the public and they have been admonished by K.T.C for doing so, and removed from off committees, along with Cllr Geraldine Stack. They spoke out for the people of Keighley, now the people of Keighley need to speak out for them.
samuels david
says...
5:24pm Wed 12 Sep 12
Mr. Forsyth, I can assure you that your message is being read by many people around the world.
The actions of Keighley Town Council are discussed, believe me!
For instance, Keighley Council is ridiculed for spending millions of pounds of ratepayers money since 2002 and is infamously now known to many in the English speaking world, as the ‘Grit Bin’ town, fame indeed!
Many outlandish excuses, I believe, will used to explain any and all shortfalls in the Civic Centre budget, flies in the toilets, snow, unemployment, wet weather, too much sun, Mr. Forsyth and his economic probing which put business of becoming ‘Partners’and therfore didn’t wish to be associated. (Nothing at all to do with the basic stupidity, on the part of the council!)
As far as I know, no professional economic risk assessment study was ever done.
It is my belief, that it was a ‘pipe dream’, concocted, probably at a pub, then fleshed out at a further meeting without seeking professional advice.
I would have thought West Riding Police must have felt Christmas had arrived when a group of untested ‘amateurs’, with gold badges, and highly colourful robes flounced in with an offer of unimaginable magnitude.
Looking on the bright side however, ever the optimist as I am, Mr Parry has stated many times, over since 2010 that no cost for this adventure would ever fall on the now disillusioned Keighley ratepayers, and Mr Parry has the full backing of the Chair of Finance, Cllr Philips and his ‘compliant’ committee.
Therefore, everything will be correct in the Civic Centre balance sheets of the future, and obviously these balance sheets will be able to be scrutinised by any independent forensic accountants for accuracy and the results publically made available. (I also believe the Moon is made of Cheese!)
David Samuels
David Samuels
The actions of Keighley Town Council are discussed, believe me!
For instance, Keighley Council is ridiculed for spending millions of pounds of ratepayers money since 2002 and is infamously now known to many in the English speaking world, as the ‘Grit Bin’ town, fame indeed!
Many outlandish excuses, I believe, will used to explain any and all shortfalls in the Civic Centre budget, flies in the toilets, snow, unemployment, wet weather, too much sun, Mr. Forsyth and his economic probing which put business of becoming ‘Partners’and therfore didn’t wish to be associated. (Nothing at all to do with the basic stupidity, on the part of the council!)
As far as I know, no professional economic risk assessment study was ever done.
It is my belief, that it was a ‘pipe dream’, concocted, probably at a pub, then fleshed out at a further meeting without seeking professional advice.
I would have thought West Riding Police must have felt Christmas had arrived when a group of untested ‘amateurs’, with gold badges, and highly colourful robes flounced in with an offer of unimaginable magnitude.
Looking on the bright side however, ever the optimist as I am, Mr Parry has stated many times, over since 2010 that no cost for this adventure would ever fall on the now disillusioned Keighley ratepayers, and Mr Parry has the full backing of the Chair of Finance, Cllr Philips and his ‘compliant’ committee.
Therefore, everything will be correct in the Civic Centre balance sheets of the future, and obviously these balance sheets will be able to be scrutinised by any independent forensic accountants for accuracy and the results publically made available. (I also believe the Moon is made of Cheese!)
David Samuels
David Samuels
Graham Forsyth
says...
5:39pm Wed 12 Sep 12
One of the duties of a Town and Parish Council is to provide allotments. The sale of six allotment plots in Skipton Road by K.T.C raised £148,000.
The use of this money, on none allotment projects, caused a disagreement between the town clerk and Cllr Brian Morris, then Allotment Chairman, who subsequently tendered his resignation . The town clerk is quoted by the Keighley News , 20 May 2010, as saying:
“ Cllr Morris was “totally out of order” complaining to the Keighley News just because he did not agree with the committee decision.
She added: “He’s only the facilitator. It’s up to the committee to make the decision. Whatever he decides, if as the chairman he doesn’t like it, tough.”
“Tough” seems to be the way K.T.C deal with any councillor who make their objections to the conduct of the Town Council known to the public.
From same Keighley News report.
“Cllr Morris believed such sale proceeds could be spent only on allotments, such as maintaining existing allotments or buying new land. He said £148,000 would have ensured the town council could provide allotments for all 150 people on its waiting list.”
ibid
“Town council clerk Miggy Bailey insisted that surplus cash from allotment sales was allowed to be spent on other council projects.”
Unfortunately for Cllr Morris, whom in this case I have sympathy for, and the 150 Keighley residents wanting an allotment at that time, some of that money was used to finance the new civic centre.
The use of this money, on none allotment projects, caused a disagreement between the town clerk and Cllr Brian Morris, then Allotment Chairman, who subsequently tendered his resignation . The town clerk is quoted by the Keighley News , 20 May 2010, as saying:
“ Cllr Morris was “totally out of order” complaining to the Keighley News just because he did not agree with the committee decision.
She added: “He’s only the facilitator. It’s up to the committee to make the decision. Whatever he decides, if as the chairman he doesn’t like it, tough.”
“Tough” seems to be the way K.T.C deal with any councillor who make their objections to the conduct of the Town Council known to the public.
From same Keighley News report.
“Cllr Morris believed such sale proceeds could be spent only on allotments, such as maintaining existing allotments or buying new land. He said £148,000 would have ensured the town council could provide allotments for all 150 people on its waiting list.”
ibid
“Town council clerk Miggy Bailey insisted that surplus cash from allotment sales was allowed to be spent on other council projects.”
Unfortunately for Cllr Morris, whom in this case I have sympathy for, and the 150 Keighley residents wanting an allotment at that time, some of that money was used to finance the new civic centre.
samuels david
says...
5:39pm Wed 12 Sep 12
Thank you jimmy k for at last spelling my name correctly.
For the record, you really have no idea how wrong you are about cronk stanley as cronk stanley is just old enough to be my son.
You are just as wrong as when you stated you believed Joyce Newton and her lies about me, but as I never hold grudges, I’m willing to shake hands and even buy you a drink, (certain conditions apply) this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. xxx
David Samuels
For the record, you really have no idea how wrong you are about cronk stanley as cronk stanley is just old enough to be my son.
You are just as wrong as when you stated you believed Joyce Newton and her lies about me, but as I never hold grudges, I’m willing to shake hands and even buy you a drink, (certain conditions apply) this could be the start of a beautiful friendship. xxx
David Samuels
jimmy k
says...
8:07pm Wed 12 Sep 12
david,wrong again on so many counts i have never called you dave that was lgm,i didn't take sides in your petty squabbles with other people a,because i don't know you or the other people,b,i just don't care and finally if i am wrong about cronk stanley i would hold my hands up however it has to be said you have history there,wizard52,curry and chips twice,blackpen need i go on?
samuels david
says...
8:16pm Wed 12 Sep 12
Mr. Forsyth, be aware.
The present Keighley Town Council hierarchy will never promote you as man of the year, if you continue to insist on telling the truth!
Concerning Cllr Morris, everybody within the Council was well aware Cllr Morris was telling the truth, yet he was forced out of the Chair of allotments because he told the truth as he saw it.
Talking the truth to the Keighley News is ‘Verboten’ for councilors.
I would have to say here and now Morris is not on my ‘Dinner list’, but he enhanced Keighley allotments, after ex Cllr Bob Horrel had taken over the run down allotments from Bradford.
I also have some sympathy for Cllr Morris to some extent, but as I’ve earlier had dealings with the man, my sympathy is muted.
Obviously, Cllr Morris was outgunned for the £148,000 money obtained from the sale of the allotments. I personally believe the hierarchy had wished to have the same personal success in a different sphere of operations.
The provision of providing 150 Keighley residents allotments on its waiting list, I believe, except for Cllr Morris was ignored, and never came into the equation of the hierarchy.
The recent reinstatement of Cllr Morris within the hierarchy has, I believe, brought him the dubious and unsavory prospect of becoming Keighley Town Mayor.
David Samuels
The present Keighley Town Council hierarchy will never promote you as man of the year, if you continue to insist on telling the truth!
Concerning Cllr Morris, everybody within the Council was well aware Cllr Morris was telling the truth, yet he was forced out of the Chair of allotments because he told the truth as he saw it.
Talking the truth to the Keighley News is ‘Verboten’ for councilors.
I would have to say here and now Morris is not on my ‘Dinner list’, but he enhanced Keighley allotments, after ex Cllr Bob Horrel had taken over the run down allotments from Bradford.
I also have some sympathy for Cllr Morris to some extent, but as I’ve earlier had dealings with the man, my sympathy is muted.
Obviously, Cllr Morris was outgunned for the £148,000 money obtained from the sale of the allotments. I personally believe the hierarchy had wished to have the same personal success in a different sphere of operations.
The provision of providing 150 Keighley residents allotments on its waiting list, I believe, except for Cllr Morris was ignored, and never came into the equation of the hierarchy.
The recent reinstatement of Cllr Morris within the hierarchy has, I believe, brought him the dubious and unsavory prospect of becoming Keighley Town Mayor.
David Samuels
samuels david
says...
10:35pm Wed 12 Sep 12
jimmy k,, did you or did you not say on the KN site that you belived Joyce Newton when the lady told lies about me in the Keighley News, etc?
I take it from the tone of your posting that my offer of a drink,(certain conditions apply) is not to taken up, oh well!
cronk stanley will be unhappy that you and all your friends still have problems with who I am,when really it's all in your mind young man.
David Samuels
I take it from the tone of your posting that my offer of a drink,(certain conditions apply) is not to taken up, oh well!
cronk stanley will be unhappy that you and all your friends still have problems with who I am,when really it's all in your mind young man.
David Samuels
Little Green Man
says...
3:47am Thu 13 Sep 12
Hey Dave, I'll have Jimmys drink if he doesn't want it :)
Graham Forsyth
says...
9:44am Thu 13 Sep 12
Keighley News, 17 June 2010 ,Cllr Phillip stated: “worst-case scenario would be that we use existing budgets to prop it up.” How much of precept money is used to make up these existing budgets? What other uses are these budgets set up for; will any of these suffer if existing budgets have to be used to help finance the new civic centre? Why would existing budgets be needed in a worse case scenario when Cllr Metcalf has explained, Keighley News 2 August 2012,that figures calculated out, which do not include profit share, are based on the worst case scenario? Has K.T.C factored in two worse case scenarios to make doubly sure the centre will not go insolvent?
From the same Keighley News report: “repayments would be covered from rental income and savings on the council’s own accommodation costs.”
It is the wording of; “savings on the council’s own accommodation costs.” that is puzzling as my freedom of information request to K.T.C, sent on the 25.4.2012 asking for details of running costs of the Town Hall, received a reply from the town clerk on the 8 June 2012 stating :” THE TOWN HALL IS OWNED BY BRADFORD COUNCIL WHO DEAL WITH THE RATES AND OVERHEADS.”
The question then is what savings on accommodation costs have been made by K.T.C by undertaking the new civic centre project. Will Bradford Council also cover the rates and overheads incurred by K.T.C from using the civic centre, as well as those of the Town Hall during this time of severe cuts in council spending?
Did Keighley actually need another civic building? According to District Cllr Doreen Lee, the new civic centre plan was absolutely crazy. Keighley News 17 June 2010.
“Doreen Lee believes the proposed civic centre would copy services at the town centre’s other two community centres.
“She said it could threaten the viability of Central Hall - currently being refurbished - and the Temple Row Centre.”
“Why does the town council want to get into debt for the sake of more duplication? Do the people of Keighley want to have their taxes increased?”
The evidence so far does nothing to reassure the people of Keighley that the new civic centre will be self financing. Out of all the 17 Parishes within the Bradford Metropolitan District Council ,within all the house bands from A-H , Keighley Town Council set the highest precepts in all house band of any of the 17 Parish councils.
http://www.bradford.
gov.uk/bmdc/advice_b
enefits_and_council_
tax/council_tax/Coun
cil_Tax_bands_and_am
ounts.htm
Copied from North Staffordshire Coalfield , under the heading. “Power to the People – Keighley shows what a town council can do.”
“
Alan Parry, special projects officer for the town council, said the development is expected to attract visitors from all over the UK.”
ibid
Alan Parry said: “It is a great asset for Keighley. We will have the only visitor centre that facilitates the study of forensic science in the country. We will attract schools and colleges from all over the country and bring the benefit to the people of Keighley.
“We are doing what we can to bring back the facilities we feel we have lost in Keighley over the last few years. The whole scheme is designed to support the community.”
He went on to say that a theatre management company would manage the museum, the education centre and the eating facilities, adding they would pay the running costs and had agreed a profit-sharing deal with the town council.
http://www.northstaf
fordshire.co.uk/?p=7
851
If the theatre management company are running the museum, education centre, and the eating facilities, does this count as one of the five needed partners or three out of the five needed partners?
The more one looks into what is being claimed for the new civic centre, the more difficult it is to understand.
From the same Keighley News report: “repayments would be covered from rental income and savings on the council’s own accommodation costs.”
It is the wording of; “savings on the council’s own accommodation costs.” that is puzzling as my freedom of information request to K.T.C, sent on the 25.4.2012 asking for details of running costs of the Town Hall, received a reply from the town clerk on the 8 June 2012 stating :” THE TOWN HALL IS OWNED BY BRADFORD COUNCIL WHO DEAL WITH THE RATES AND OVERHEADS.”
The question then is what savings on accommodation costs have been made by K.T.C by undertaking the new civic centre project. Will Bradford Council also cover the rates and overheads incurred by K.T.C from using the civic centre, as well as those of the Town Hall during this time of severe cuts in council spending?
Did Keighley actually need another civic building? According to District Cllr Doreen Lee, the new civic centre plan was absolutely crazy. Keighley News 17 June 2010.
“Doreen Lee believes the proposed civic centre would copy services at the town centre’s other two community centres.
“She said it could threaten the viability of Central Hall - currently being refurbished - and the Temple Row Centre.”
“Why does the town council want to get into debt for the sake of more duplication? Do the people of Keighley want to have their taxes increased?”
The evidence so far does nothing to reassure the people of Keighley that the new civic centre will be self financing. Out of all the 17 Parishes within the Bradford Metropolitan District Council ,within all the house bands from A-H , Keighley Town Council set the highest precepts in all house band of any of the 17 Parish councils.
http://www.bradford.
gov.uk/bmdc/advice_b
enefits_and_council_
tax/council_tax/Coun
cil_Tax_bands_and_am
ounts.htm
Copied from North Staffordshire Coalfield , under the heading. “Power to the People – Keighley shows what a town council can do.”
“
Alan Parry, special projects officer for the town council, said the development is expected to attract visitors from all over the UK.”
ibid
Alan Parry said: “It is a great asset for Keighley. We will have the only visitor centre that facilitates the study of forensic science in the country. We will attract schools and colleges from all over the country and bring the benefit to the people of Keighley.
“We are doing what we can to bring back the facilities we feel we have lost in Keighley over the last few years. The whole scheme is designed to support the community.”
He went on to say that a theatre management company would manage the museum, the education centre and the eating facilities, adding they would pay the running costs and had agreed a profit-sharing deal with the town council.
http://www.northstaf
fordshire.co.uk/?p=7
851
If the theatre management company are running the museum, education centre, and the eating facilities, does this count as one of the five needed partners or three out of the five needed partners?
The more one looks into what is being claimed for the new civic centre, the more difficult it is to understand.
Graham Forsyth
says...
11:53am Thu 13 Sep 12
Keighley News 7, October 2011, titled.`Anger at deal for old police station` , Cllr Morris has commented:
Brian244 says...
2:14pm Sat 8 Oct 11
Now let’s have some facts before we go off the rails and reach the wrong conclusion.
1. The building will be self financing. Well that’s what Councillors have been told.
2. The Office accommodation will be filled to capacity and it won’t cost the rate payer another penny?
3. It’s irrelevant that no one has signed a contract committing them to taking up the space allotted to them?
4. Its irrelevant Councillors have been refused financial information on the project.
5. Its irrelevant only the Finance Chairman and the projects officer are the only people who know the full costs and implications, when asked for this information the Chairman of Finance replied “you don’t need to know”.
So why worry it will be alright because we have been told it will.
Sorry not convinced dark day’s are on the horizon and its going to cost you the ratepayers allot of money. I would imagine the precept will be kept down next year with reserves but after that ouch.
Cllr Brian Morris
And again:
Brian244 says...
2:46pm Sat 8 Oct 11
“A Bling bling, bling bling sounds like someone’s pulling the Mayors chain.
Seriously the Town Councillors who are looking through rose tinted glasses, and suffering from delusions of grandeur should think of the ratepayer instead of their egos.
As a Town councillor myself I can’t justify some of the crazy outrageous ideas being put into action in these times of financial hardship. The Old Police Station is a perfect example.
The Town Council has proved beyond doubt it is not fit for purpose, failing the electorate miserably and altogether not working, it should be disbanded and let the District Council try to repair the damage KTC has caused to this Town.”
Cllr Brian Morris
Having opined that K.T.C are unfit for purpose, the purchase of the old police station is a crazy outrageous idea,and its going to cost you the ratepayers allot of money, Cllr Morrison, in the Keighley News, 2 August 2012, in the `Your Letters` pages opines again:
“Speaking as a member of the public I can understand why Keighley Town Council has taken the approach it has, it it well known to those who read the Keighley News this newspaper is not, and never has been, a fan of the town council, and never gives it credit for it's many achievements.
ibid.
….......so it is now time for the local paper to get behind the town council and recognise the civic centre as an imaginative “growth” project which has already provided many jobs for Keighley people.”
Brian Morris
Yet again we see nothing but confusion and contradiction from within K.T.C in regards to the new civic centre. What are the people of Keighley to make of this?
Brian244 says...
2:14pm Sat 8 Oct 11
Now let’s have some facts before we go off the rails and reach the wrong conclusion.
1. The building will be self financing. Well that’s what Councillors have been told.
2. The Office accommodation will be filled to capacity and it won’t cost the rate payer another penny?
3. It’s irrelevant that no one has signed a contract committing them to taking up the space allotted to them?
4. Its irrelevant Councillors have been refused financial information on the project.
5. Its irrelevant only the Finance Chairman and the projects officer are the only people who know the full costs and implications, when asked for this information the Chairman of Finance replied “you don’t need to know”.
So why worry it will be alright because we have been told it will.
Sorry not convinced dark day’s are on the horizon and its going to cost you the ratepayers allot of money. I would imagine the precept will be kept down next year with reserves but after that ouch.
Cllr Brian Morris
And again:
Brian244 says...
2:46pm Sat 8 Oct 11
“A Bling bling, bling bling sounds like someone’s pulling the Mayors chain.
Seriously the Town Councillors who are looking through rose tinted glasses, and suffering from delusions of grandeur should think of the ratepayer instead of their egos.
As a Town councillor myself I can’t justify some of the crazy outrageous ideas being put into action in these times of financial hardship. The Old Police Station is a perfect example.
The Town Council has proved beyond doubt it is not fit for purpose, failing the electorate miserably and altogether not working, it should be disbanded and let the District Council try to repair the damage KTC has caused to this Town.”
Cllr Brian Morris
Having opined that K.T.C are unfit for purpose, the purchase of the old police station is a crazy outrageous idea,and its going to cost you the ratepayers allot of money, Cllr Morrison, in the Keighley News, 2 August 2012, in the `Your Letters` pages opines again:
“Speaking as a member of the public I can understand why Keighley Town Council has taken the approach it has, it it well known to those who read the Keighley News this newspaper is not, and never has been, a fan of the town council, and never gives it credit for it's many achievements.
ibid.
….......so it is now time for the local paper to get behind the town council and recognise the civic centre as an imaginative “growth” project which has already provided many jobs for Keighley people.”
Brian Morris
Yet again we see nothing but confusion and contradiction from within K.T.C in regards to the new civic centre. What are the people of Keighley to make of this?
jimmy k
says...
4:11pm Thu 13 Sep 12
no david i didn't say i believed joyce(whoever she is )as for friends i don't have any, family and work is all i can seem to manage at the moment.
jimmy k
says...
4:50pm Thu 13 Sep 12
p.s. david i never accept an offer of a drink under conditions as i rather thought that the idea is to buy a drink out of kindness/friendship not to stipulate conditions.
Graham Forsyth
says...
7:32am Fri 14 Sep 12
Recalling the statesmen made by the town clerk to the Keighley News 20 May 2012:
“Town council clerk Miggy Bailey insisted that surplus cash from allotment sales was allowed to be spent on other council projects.”
The argument made by Cllr Morris was valid, that money should have been used to acquire more allotment land. The following is from the `Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908.`
Part II
Allotments Provision of Allotments
Duty of certain councils to provide allotments.
(1)If the council of any borough, urban district, or parish are of opinion that there is a demand for allotments . . . F2 in the borough, urban district, or parish, . . . the council shall provide a sufficient number of allotments, and shall let such allotments to persons . . . resident in the borough, district, or parish, and desiring to take the same.
(2)On a representation in writing to the council of any borough, urban district, or parish, by any six registered parliamentary electors or resident in the borough, urban district, or parish, that the circumstances of the borough, urban district, or parish are such that it is the duty of the council to take proceedings under this Part of this Act therein, the council shall take such representation into consideration.
Sale of superfluous or unsuitable land.
(1)Where the council of any borough, urban district, or parish are of opinion that any land acquired by them for allotments or any part thereof is not needed for the purpose of allotments, or that some more suitable land is available, they may, . . . F21 sell or let such land otherwise than under the provisions of this Act, or exchange the land for other land more suitable for allotments, and may pay or receive money for equality of exchange.
(2)The proceeds of a sale under this Act of land acquired for allotments, and any money received by the council on any such exchange as aforesaid by way of equality of exchange, shall be applied in discharging, either by way of a sinking fund or otherwise, the debts and liabilities of the council in respect of the land acquired by the council for allotments, or in acquiring, adapting, and improving other land for allotments, and any surplus remaining may be applied for any purpose for which capital money may be applied, . . . F22; and the interest thereon (if any) and any money received from the letting of the land may be applied in acquiring other land for allotments, or shall be applied in like manner as receipts from allotments under this Act are applicable.
http://www.legislati
on.gov.uk/ukpga/Edw7
/8/36
Cllr Morris pointed out that 150 people, were on the waiting list for allotments, that is more then the required six as given in the above act. Further the act stipulates: “ any surplus remaining may be applied for any purpose for which capital money may be applied”. 150 people on a waiting list for allotments, K.T.C selling off six allotment plots, thus reducing allotment land, and then using some of this money to fund the new civic centre while that waiting list still remains. How can the town clerk claim using this money to help fund the new civic centre was allowed? How can there be any `surplus` money from sale of allotments plots when a shortage of allotments exists?
Yet again it looks like the people of Keighley are losing out to K.T.C's push for a new civic centre which appears to have blinded K.T.C to their civic duties of providing allotments when the demand for them is there.
“Town council clerk Miggy Bailey insisted that surplus cash from allotment sales was allowed to be spent on other council projects.”
The argument made by Cllr Morris was valid, that money should have been used to acquire more allotment land. The following is from the `Small Holdings and Allotments Act 1908.`
Part II
Allotments Provision of Allotments
Duty of certain councils to provide allotments.
(1)If the council of any borough, urban district, or parish are of opinion that there is a demand for allotments . . . F2 in the borough, urban district, or parish, . . . the council shall provide a sufficient number of allotments, and shall let such allotments to persons . . . resident in the borough, district, or parish, and desiring to take the same.
(2)On a representation in writing to the council of any borough, urban district, or parish, by any six registered parliamentary electors or resident in the borough, urban district, or parish, that the circumstances of the borough, urban district, or parish are such that it is the duty of the council to take proceedings under this Part of this Act therein, the council shall take such representation into consideration.
Sale of superfluous or unsuitable land.
(1)Where the council of any borough, urban district, or parish are of opinion that any land acquired by them for allotments or any part thereof is not needed for the purpose of allotments, or that some more suitable land is available, they may, . . . F21 sell or let such land otherwise than under the provisions of this Act, or exchange the land for other land more suitable for allotments, and may pay or receive money for equality of exchange.
(2)The proceeds of a sale under this Act of land acquired for allotments, and any money received by the council on any such exchange as aforesaid by way of equality of exchange, shall be applied in discharging, either by way of a sinking fund or otherwise, the debts and liabilities of the council in respect of the land acquired by the council for allotments, or in acquiring, adapting, and improving other land for allotments, and any surplus remaining may be applied for any purpose for which capital money may be applied, . . . F22; and the interest thereon (if any) and any money received from the letting of the land may be applied in acquiring other land for allotments, or shall be applied in like manner as receipts from allotments under this Act are applicable.
http://www.legislati
on.gov.uk/ukpga/Edw7
/8/36
Cllr Morris pointed out that 150 people, were on the waiting list for allotments, that is more then the required six as given in the above act. Further the act stipulates: “ any surplus remaining may be applied for any purpose for which capital money may be applied”. 150 people on a waiting list for allotments, K.T.C selling off six allotment plots, thus reducing allotment land, and then using some of this money to fund the new civic centre while that waiting list still remains. How can the town clerk claim using this money to help fund the new civic centre was allowed? How can there be any `surplus` money from sale of allotments plots when a shortage of allotments exists?
Yet again it looks like the people of Keighley are losing out to K.T.C's push for a new civic centre which appears to have blinded K.T.C to their civic duties of providing allotments when the demand for them is there.
Auntyarrogance
says...
9:09pm Fri 14 Sep 12
wow there's some sad people on this...just rejoice the nasty politics of Hudson and his cronies have been dealt some natural justice. Stick that in ya allotment and grow it !
Graham Forsyth
says...
3:35pm Sat 15 Sep 12
With a waiting list for allotments and K.T.C selling off allotment land, which it then used some of the money raised to help finances the new civic centre, there is a shortage of allotments in which Keighley people can stick anything in to grow.
Auntyarrogance says...
7:36pm Fri 7 Sep 12