Keighley Gala organisers caught in crossfire of bitter dispute between Keighley Town Council and its critics

Keighley Gala organisers have been caught in the crossfire of a bitter dispute between Keighley Town Council and its critics.

Members of the Cavetown group, which is unhappy with the council’s leadership, say they were prevented from having a stand at the Victoria Park event after a councillor put pressure on the gala committee.

The town council hit back, accusing Cavetown of politicising Sunday’s gala, and that some of its members allegedly verbally abused Keighley’s mayor and town clerk.

Gala chairman Andrew Jackson said: “We were put between a rock and a hard place and dragged into a fight we never wanted to be part of.”

He confirmed the gala committee initially agreed to Cavetown having a stand to promote its petition, which calls on the council to allow filming at its meetings and make its financial records more transparent.

“I was put in a very awkward position on Friday,” Mr Jackson said. “I was led to believe by one council member if we did not withdraw Cavetown’s stand the council would halt its involvement in the gala.”

He said the council had no financial input, but stressed he and his colleagues did not want to risk losing its participation.

Cavetown spokesman Elizabeth Mitchell said: “Two hours after permission was granted for our stand, it was withdrawn.

“We instead took our petition to the people along the procession route and were met by MP Kris Hopkins in the park. He supports our right to film and was proud to be with us collecting signatures.”

Town clerk Miggy Bailey responded: “It’s necessary to mention again the town mayor has already stated the issue of filming will be referred to committee, with a resolution brought to our September meeting.

“Keighley Gala has been, and should remain, an entirely non-political and non-confrontational activity.

“It is, of course, for the gala committee to decide whether or not it wishes to permit a campaigning group to have a stall. But the committee cannot reasonably expect the council to be happy to be involved at an event that appears to have been targeted by a group that has a record of a barrage of harassment against the council.”

Mrs Mitchell said she heard no abuse during the parade.

Mr Hopkins said members of the public at the gala responded enthusiastically to the Cavetown petition, and praised the group’s members for their organisation and commitment.

l E-mail richard.parker@-keighleynews.co.uk with your views about this story.

Comments (137)

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1:50pm Thu 15 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

Keighley Town Council clerk says above " a group that has a record of a barrage of harassment against the council.”. The reason Cavetown Council exists is to make this council Open and Transparent. Ms Bailey classes Freedom of Information requests as harassment. Some weeks ago she reported members to the police for making such requests, saying it was harassment. The police had to duly inform her it was no such thing and that it was every citizen's right to ask for information. Ms Bailey's statement is false. Members of the group do not harass council, nor did they abuse anyone in the procession. Members of this group have so far uncovered, the selling of the Skipton Road allotments for £148K and giving £110 of the proceeds to fund the failing Civic Centre, which in their own accounts for 2012-13 has made a massive loss of a quarter of a million pounds. There were 150 on the waiting list at the time. They have uncovered three councillors receiving a loan of £20,000 from the council, to fund their business. When their business failed they paid not one penny back. None of those councillors recorded an interest in the member's register. This bad debt was never chased by officers. Why?. They have uncovered the council buying and selling of horses always at a loss. By the way the one in the procession wasn't the council's horse, bought to pull the Mariah, so no doubt we will be paying another lot of money for horse hire. They have uncovered maladministration when inspecting the council's accounts and reported and objected to this to the council's external auditors, who no doubt will be conducting an investigation. They have uncovered payments of hundreds of pounds to people just on a scrap of paper, no authorisation on many payments. They have uncovered valuable assets not recorded on the council's asset register. Where are these assets.?. Members of Keighley Town Council are so under the thumb of officers they actually approved the Annual Accounts without seeing them. They council raised the precept for this year by 72.6% to fund the projected Civic Centre Deficit of £179K. Minutes of council meetings are edited, so that the good people of Keighley know nothing of their wrong doing. Even when graham Mitchell called the electorate 'mad swivel eyed loons' it was recorded in this paper but not in the minutes. He has been reported to the Bradford Standards board for his behaviour along with other rude arrogant councillors. THESE ARE THE REASONS WE NEED TO FILM KEIGHLEY TOWN COUNCIL
Keighley Town Council clerk says above " a group that has a record of a barrage of harassment against the council.”. The reason Cavetown Council exists is to make this council Open and Transparent. Ms Bailey classes Freedom of Information requests as harassment. Some weeks ago she reported members to the police for making such requests, saying it was harassment. The police had to duly inform her it was no such thing and that it was every citizen's right to ask for information. Ms Bailey's statement is false. Members of the group do not harass council, nor did they abuse anyone in the procession. Members of this group have so far uncovered, the selling of the Skipton Road allotments for £148K and giving £110 of the proceeds to fund the failing Civic Centre, which in their own accounts for 2012-13 has made a massive loss of a quarter of a million pounds. There were 150 on the waiting list at the time. They have uncovered three councillors receiving a loan of £20,000 from the council, to fund their business. When their business failed they paid not one penny back. None of those councillors recorded an interest in the member's register. This bad debt was never chased by officers. Why?. They have uncovered the council buying and selling of horses always at a loss. By the way the one in the procession wasn't the council's horse, bought to pull the Mariah, so no doubt we will be paying another lot of money for horse hire. They have uncovered maladministration when inspecting the council's accounts and reported and objected to this to the council's external auditors, who no doubt will be conducting an investigation. They have uncovered payments of hundreds of pounds to people just on a scrap of paper, no authorisation on many payments. They have uncovered valuable assets not recorded on the council's asset register. Where are these assets.?. Members of Keighley Town Council are so under the thumb of officers they actually approved the Annual Accounts without seeing them. They council raised the precept for this year by 72.6% to fund the projected Civic Centre Deficit of £179K. Minutes of council meetings are edited, so that the good people of Keighley know nothing of their wrong doing. Even when graham Mitchell called the electorate 'mad swivel eyed loons' it was recorded in this paper but not in the minutes. He has been reported to the Bradford Standards board for his behaviour along with other rude arrogant councillors. THESE ARE THE REASONS WE NEED TO FILM KEIGHLEY TOWN COUNCIL nannatyke
  • Score: 7

2:21pm Thu 15 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Shame KTC Shame!
You have even managed to turn what could of been an opportunity to promote the council into one which once again exposes the arrogance and abuse of your status to the world.
So much opportunity to do good for the people of Keighley, yet so many self indulgent egos have squandered this opportunity along with the coffers held in the public purse.

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
Shame KTC Shame! You have even managed to turn what could of been an opportunity to promote the council into one which once again exposes the arrogance and abuse of your status to the world. So much opportunity to do good for the people of Keighley, yet so many self indulgent egos have squandered this opportunity along with the coffers held in the public purse. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 5

5:58pm Thu 15 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

What's this `record of a barrage of harassment against the council`?

Is it the F.O.I requests which by law we can legally send and the council has to comply with?

Is it that we report the council to the I.C.O when they fail to comply with the F.O.I Act?

Is it that we want to film and record the councils meetings due to the fact the council edit the minutes?

Is it that we have reported certain councillors to the standards board due to their unacceptable conduct?

Is it our objections to the squandering of precept money on an idiotic and money wasting civic centre that was never needed?

Is it that we do not agree with the wasting of money on horses which ended up having to be sold off?

Is it the large number of objections sent to the external auditors in regards to the council's maladministration?

Is it that we have now set up and run two websites which provide the public with information that keeps them informed of what their council is doing.?

Is it that we will not be bullied by a dysfunctional council that is unfit for purpose?


None of the above is harassment, it is our right and one we will continue to exercise. Tick Tock
What's this `record of a barrage of harassment against the council`? Is it the F.O.I requests which by law we can legally send and the council has to comply with? Is it that we report the council to the I.C.O when they fail to comply with the F.O.I Act? Is it that we want to film and record the councils meetings due to the fact the council edit the minutes? Is it that we have reported certain councillors to the standards board due to their unacceptable conduct? Is it our objections to the squandering of precept money on an idiotic and money wasting civic centre that was never needed? Is it that we do not agree with the wasting of money on horses which ended up having to be sold off? Is it the large number of objections sent to the external auditors in regards to the council's maladministration? Is it that we have now set up and run two websites which provide the public with information that keeps them informed of what their council is doing.? Is it that we will not be bullied by a dysfunctional council that is unfit for purpose? None of the above is harassment, it is our right and one we will continue to exercise. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 6

6:13pm Thu 15 Aug 13

shepherd13 says...

god help the keighley show another battle ground??
god help the keighley show another battle ground?? shepherd13
  • Score: 2

10:56pm Thu 15 Aug 13

Cornishlady says...

To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............
and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics
To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............ and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics Cornishlady
  • Score: 0

11:49pm Thu 15 Aug 13

samuels david says...

The same totally, unliveable propaganda being swilled through the streets of this town by Keighley Town Councils mindless heiriacry is without doubt the one of the reasons that this town has so few friends. Yet one would have supposed that after all the lies emanating from the Council, and over many years lessons may have been learnt.
Such is the foolishness of the few Councillors in charge, that they have continually to make mistake after mistake, on made on a day by day basis, and yet even the lowest form of animal life on earth would have learned to avoid the pitfalls this Council make for itself. Yet they continue to ignore their own manufactured stupidity and so fall daily in the headlong into the crisis they make for themselves.
A feeble excuse could be made if these mistakes were avoidable, or even made by others, but the situation has for many years been exacerbated by those who have totally mismanaged the running of this Council and the situation is now out of control.
The brazen and unstudstanciated comments as reported in the Keighley News by Mrs Bailey, Keighley Town Clerk, of those who seek information and explanation as being "a group that has a record of a barrage of harassment against the council.” should be legally substantiated and vindicated.
That once again those in control of Mrs Bailey have exposed their own egotism, arrogance, and proves what I have been saying for many years, which is that these lowlifes in Keighley Town Council need the illusionary power to exist, and I would suggest even a child would have noticed the result of such blind fool hardiness.
Those running Keighley Town, wake up! Look around you all! Acknowledge that have you turned Keighley in a national freak show, and created for yourselves and your families a shame lasting for years. When the full inquest on all your actions become public you will rightfully become vilified for you shameful lack of implementing all the lawful rules, which whilst your group just couldn’t be bothered to put into action, statuary rules and the law will I believe make you all realise that they law is for the benefit of the public, and such procedures are to be obeyed!
DAVID SAMUELS
And yes Brian Morris I did tape your boast on Sunday in Keighley!
The same totally, unliveable propaganda being swilled through the streets of this town by Keighley Town Councils mindless heiriacry is without doubt the one of the reasons that this town has so few friends. Yet one would have supposed that after all the lies emanating from the Council, and over many years lessons may have been learnt. Such is the foolishness of the few Councillors in charge, that they have continually to make mistake after mistake, on made on a day by day basis, and yet even the lowest form of animal life on earth would have learned to avoid the pitfalls this Council make for itself. Yet they continue to ignore their own manufactured stupidity and so fall daily in the headlong into the crisis they make for themselves. A feeble excuse could be made if these mistakes were avoidable, or even made by others, but the situation has for many years been exacerbated by those who have totally mismanaged the running of this Council and the situation is now out of control. The brazen and unstudstanciated comments as reported in the Keighley News by Mrs Bailey, Keighley Town Clerk, of those who seek information and explanation as being "a group that has a record of a barrage of harassment against the council.” should be legally substantiated and vindicated. That once again those in control of Mrs Bailey have exposed their own egotism, arrogance, and proves what I have been saying for many years, which is that these lowlifes in Keighley Town Council need the illusionary power to exist, and I would suggest even a child would have noticed the result of such blind fool hardiness. Those running Keighley Town, wake up! Look around you all! Acknowledge that have you turned Keighley in a national freak show, and created for yourselves and your families a shame lasting for years. When the full inquest on all your actions become public you will rightfully become vilified for you shameful lack of implementing all the lawful rules, which whilst your group just couldn’t be bothered to put into action, statuary rules and the law will I believe make you all realise that they law is for the benefit of the public, and such procedures are to be obeyed! DAVID SAMUELS And yes Brian Morris I did tape your boast on Sunday in Keighley! samuels david
  • Score: 3

6:13am Fri 16 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

What credibility has this council got left? After calling in the police on the 4 July to remove ten parishioner from the town hall, most of them elderly, telling the police threats had been made to councillors, on arrival the police found that not to be the case.

T&A,Saturday 6th July 2013. Keighley Town Council ‘lost the plot’ over filming
“After speaking with all parties officers established that despite the situation being heated, no actual threats had been made.

The police acted to the call from the council due to this. Taken from the police report provided to myself after making a complaint.

“The reporting person informed the Police Officer that there was a disturbance at Keighley Town Hall. The officer was informed that 10 people in the public gallery had threatened Councillors and the caretaker...”

Now we have this.

“The town council hit back, accusing Cavetown of politicising Sunday’s gala, and that some of its members allegedly verbally abused Keighley’s mayor and town clerk.”

Cavetown Council did not politicise the gala, the gala committee had no problems with the group having a table, it was K.T.C that had the problem. Cavetown Council did not object to the council partaking in the gala , despite the massive deficit it has created due to it's civic centre plans going badly awry, then made parishioner help pay for via the 72.6% precept hike.

No objections were made to the gala committee by Cavetown Council to K.T.C participation due to the fact the council has wasted money on purchasing two horses to pull the black maria, but ended up having to hire a horse for the occasion. And where is the proof to substantiate any verbal abuse took place?

And again.

” Mr Jackson said. “I was led to believe by one council member if we did not withdraw Cavetown’s stand the council would halt its involvement in the gala.”


When Mr Andrew Jackson approached our group in the town hall to speak with us, we reassured him no protest was ever planned for this event, and we gave our word no disruption would be caused. Indeed, our group entered into the spirit of the occasion and joined in with the band by clapping hands in rhythm with the music etc.

Truth will out, and the truth is coming out, and more is yet to come.

Tick Tock
What credibility has this council got left? After calling in the police on the 4 July to remove ten parishioner from the town hall, most of them elderly, telling the police threats had been made to councillors, on arrival the police found that not to be the case. T&A,Saturday 6th July 2013. Keighley Town Council ‘lost the plot’ over filming “After speaking with all parties officers established that despite the situation being heated, no actual threats had been made. The police acted to the call from the council due to this. Taken from the police report provided to myself after making a complaint. “The reporting person informed the Police Officer that there was a disturbance at Keighley Town Hall. The officer was informed that 10 people in the public gallery had threatened Councillors and the caretaker...” Now we have this. “The town council hit back, accusing Cavetown of politicising Sunday’s gala, and that some of its members allegedly verbally abused Keighley’s mayor and town clerk.” Cavetown Council did not politicise the gala, the gala committee had no problems with the group having a table, it was K.T.C that had the problem. Cavetown Council did not object to the council partaking in the gala , despite the massive deficit it has created due to it's civic centre plans going badly awry, then made parishioner help pay for via the 72.6% precept hike. No objections were made to the gala committee by Cavetown Council to K.T.C participation due to the fact the council has wasted money on purchasing two horses to pull the black maria, but ended up having to hire a horse for the occasion. And where is the proof to substantiate any verbal abuse took place? And again. ” Mr Jackson said. “I was led to believe by one council member if we did not withdraw Cavetown’s stand the council would halt its involvement in the gala.” When Mr Andrew Jackson approached our group in the town hall to speak with us, we reassured him no protest was ever planned for this event, and we gave our word no disruption would be caused. Indeed, our group entered into the spirit of the occasion and joined in with the band by clapping hands in rhythm with the music etc. Truth will out, and the truth is coming out, and more is yet to come. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 6

8:03am Fri 16 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

Cornishlady wrote:
To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............

and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics
Wow what venom,what insults,why?You'll fit right in on this page Cornishlady.
chip shop
[quote][p][bold]Cornishlady[/bold] wrote: To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............ and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics[/p][/quote]Wow what venom,what insults,why?You'll fit right in on this page Cornishlady. chip shop jimmy k
  • Score: 5

8:07am Fri 16 Aug 13

James McGrath says...

I notice the use of the words, "allegedly verbally abused Keighley’s mayor and town clerk". Its amazing how the council cannot provide proof to back this claim up.
Yet Cavetown can provide proof of everything they say has happened.
I notice the use of the words, "allegedly verbally abused Keighley’s mayor and town clerk". Its amazing how the council cannot provide proof to back this claim up. Yet Cavetown can provide proof of everything they say has happened. James McGrath
  • Score: 4

9:13am Fri 16 Aug 13

JulieJaques says...

I was in Keighley Town Hall square in Sunday during the crowning if the Gala Queen, at no point did any members of Cavetown Council Harass or abuse any member of Keighley Tiwn Council, in fact it was quite the opposite. The members sat peacefully on a bench during all proceedings. The mayor of Bradford and a member of council then told me that they wouldn't be staying after the procession as they had a funeral to go to!
I was at Victoria Park and on the procession route thought proceedings and at no time did I see any abuse or harassment by members of Cavetown Council or anybody else. The members of Cavetown did want a table top display at Victoria Park but withdrew graciously because Keighley Town Council threatened to withdraw their input (in the procession) and crowning of the Gala queen if they were allowed their table top display - it seems to me that The only bullies are Keighley Town Council!!
I was in Keighley Town Hall square in Sunday during the crowning if the Gala Queen, at no point did any members of Cavetown Council Harass or abuse any member of Keighley Tiwn Council, in fact it was quite the opposite. The members sat peacefully on a bench during all proceedings. The mayor of Bradford and a member of council then told me that they wouldn't be staying after the procession as they had a funeral to go to! I was at Victoria Park and on the procession route thought proceedings and at no time did I see any abuse or harassment by members of Cavetown Council or anybody else. The members of Cavetown did want a table top display at Victoria Park but withdrew graciously because Keighley Town Council threatened to withdraw their input (in the procession) and crowning of the Gala queen if they were allowed their table top display - it seems to me that The only bullies are Keighley Town Council!! JulieJaques
  • Score: 9

10:38am Fri 16 Aug 13

samuels david says...

If there was any fracas, disturbance, or even the merest of a scuffle, on the Sunday, does one honestly believe that moments after the Mayor of Keighley had her official photograph taken with the Lord Mayor of Bradford, that he and charming family would go out of their way to walk up to me in the Town Hall Square, and then have many minutes of private and intimate conversations with me? Then later on, with his entire family I was asked to have group photographs taken his family and himself, but remember, all this time I was also in the adjoining company of members of the Cavetown Council.
It is implied however that whilst the Lord Mayor and his family were enjoying these minutes of relaxation, the Cavetown Council members were causing abuse and harassment to the Keighley Town Mayor and/or her retainers of court!
What utter nonsense! The reality was that such comments were just lies again from Keighley Town Council!

David Samuels
If there was any fracas, disturbance, or even the merest of a scuffle, on the Sunday, does one honestly believe that moments after the Mayor of Keighley had her official photograph taken with the Lord Mayor of Bradford, that he and charming family would go out of their way to walk up to me in the Town Hall Square, and then have many minutes of private and intimate conversations with me? Then later on, with his entire family I was asked to have group photographs taken his family and himself, but remember, all this time I was also in the adjoining company of members of the Cavetown Council. It is implied however that whilst the Lord Mayor and his family were enjoying these minutes of relaxation, the Cavetown Council members were causing abuse and harassment to the Keighley Town Mayor and/or her retainers of court! What utter nonsense! The reality was that such comments were just lies again from Keighley Town Council! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 3

10:45am Fri 16 Aug 13

shshsoquiet says...

I was at the square on sunday morning and I saw the cavetown group, they were approached by a gentleman and had a very calm conversation I presume this person was the chairman of the gala. there was no angry words or anything.
the crowning ceremony was done in a professional manner the music was great and everyone there really enjoyed themselves I did not see anyone abuse the Keighley Mayor in anyway.
I later saw the cavetown group down by the KN building again cheering on the parade and chatting to the crowd as well as asking people to sign the petition which to me was their aim that day .
Again when I saw them in the park and Kris Hopkins MP was with them everyone was enjoying the day.
so were was all this abuse and disruption you so claim took place Miggy Bailey ??
where was all the disruption councillors? oh sorry you weren't there except councillor westerman , great support you gave then.
Now I believe you should apologise to everyone that "you put between a rock and hard place" as all you have achieved from this is a complete loss of face in the publics eye.
I look forward to seeing this apology in next weeks KN front page .PS the word is" sorry we got it wrong"
I was at the square on sunday morning and I saw the cavetown group, they were approached by a gentleman and had a very calm conversation I presume this person was the chairman of the gala. there was no angry words or anything. the crowning ceremony was done in a professional manner the music was great and everyone there really enjoyed themselves I did not see anyone abuse the Keighley Mayor in anyway. I later saw the cavetown group down by the KN building again cheering on the parade and chatting to the crowd as well as asking people to sign the petition which to me was their aim that day . Again when I saw them in the park and Kris Hopkins MP was with them everyone was enjoying the day. so were was all this abuse and disruption you so claim took place Miggy Bailey ?? where was all the disruption councillors? oh sorry you weren't there except councillor westerman , great support you gave then. Now I believe you should apologise to everyone that "you put between a rock and hard place" as all you have achieved from this is a complete loss of face in the publics eye. I look forward to seeing this apology in next weeks KN front page .PS the word is" sorry we got it wrong" shshsoquiet
  • Score: 3

10:48am Fri 16 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

Cornishlady wrote:
To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............

and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics
In the wake of that post, I'm pretty sure there are a few words with capital letters that Shepherd 13 may now think could be used to describe you, Cornishlady...
[quote][p][bold]Cornishlady[/bold] wrote: To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............ and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics[/p][/quote]In the wake of that post, I'm pretty sure there are a few words with capital letters that Shepherd 13 may now think could be used to describe you, Cornishlady... Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 2

10:52am Fri 16 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

samuels david wrote:
If there was any fracas, disturbance, or even the merest of a scuffle, on the Sunday, does one honestly believe that moments after the Mayor of Keighley had her official photograph taken with the Lord Mayor of Bradford, that he and charming family would go out of their way to walk up to me in the Town Hall Square, and then have many minutes of private and intimate conversations with me? Then later on, with his entire family I was asked to have group photographs taken his family and himself, but remember, all this time I was also in the adjoining company of members of the Cavetown Council.
It is implied however that whilst the Lord Mayor and his family were enjoying these minutes of relaxation, the Cavetown Council members were causing abuse and harassment to the Keighley Town Mayor and/or her retainers of court!
What utter nonsense! The reality was that such comments were just lies again from Keighley Town Council!

David Samuels
i kept trying to have intimate conversations with the mayor but then he got the restraining order out on me.
ham hock.
[quote][p][bold]samuels david[/bold] wrote: If there was any fracas, disturbance, or even the merest of a scuffle, on the Sunday, does one honestly believe that moments after the Mayor of Keighley had her official photograph taken with the Lord Mayor of Bradford, that he and charming family would go out of their way to walk up to me in the Town Hall Square, and then have many minutes of private and intimate conversations with me? Then later on, with his entire family I was asked to have group photographs taken his family and himself, but remember, all this time I was also in the adjoining company of members of the Cavetown Council. It is implied however that whilst the Lord Mayor and his family were enjoying these minutes of relaxation, the Cavetown Council members were causing abuse and harassment to the Keighley Town Mayor and/or her retainers of court! What utter nonsense! The reality was that such comments were just lies again from Keighley Town Council! David Samuels[/p][/quote]i kept trying to have intimate conversations with the mayor but then he got the restraining order out on me. ham hock. jimmy k
  • Score: -1

11:47am Fri 16 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

So the troops come out to attack the post by a female. Old age pensioners and women seem to be the favorite targets of those who don't like things posted against the council.
Just waiting for Lonely Green Man to chip in then you have the whole gang here boys... although as usual, nothing to say regarding this new embarrassing story about the clowncil, just a lot of meaningless quips and snipes, when are you going to mention the Boltmakers?
Tick Tock
So the troops come out to attack the post by a female. Old age pensioners and women seem to be the favorite targets of those who don't like things posted against the council. Just waiting for Lonely Green Man to chip in then you have the whole gang here boys... although as usual, nothing to say regarding this new embarrassing story about the clowncil, just a lot of meaningless quips and snipes, when are you going to mention the Boltmakers? Tick Tock Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

11:47am Fri 16 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

It is noticeable that K.T.C, nor any of it's supporters, have provided any proof of this alleged verbal abuse, just as they have failed to provide any proof to refute the facts and figures provided by Cavetown Council of this council's civic centre and finances. The truth is coming out, as Mr Samuels always said it eventually would. Tick Tock
It is noticeable that K.T.C, nor any of it's supporters, have provided any proof of this alleged verbal abuse, just as they have failed to provide any proof to refute the facts and figures provided by Cavetown Council of this council's civic centre and finances. The truth is coming out, as Mr Samuels always said it eventually would. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 1

11:54am Fri 16 Aug 13

samuels david says...

It is obvious that once again KTC have been embarrassing caught out, with the usual defamation of character, deceit and misdirection of the facts given to the press regarding those members of the public who are trying to clean out the shambolic Keighley Council hierarchy, those who have caused so much financial damage to this town.
The stalwarts are back with the usual insults against those who have the courage to stand and fight against what I can only see as misconduct against personal valour and honesty.
The loss of kudos these people sustain with their low level insults being spat out, definitely places them well within the remit of being KTC heroes, and so, yet another all expenses paid ‘training course’ weekend in London is in the bag! (Perks!)

David Samuels

To all those members of the public now fighting the KTC storm troopers, these low life’s will imply and spread deceitful stories, as yet another deceitful story was told about me outside the Keighley bus station yesterday, just realise these people are so terribly desperate to blacken your name, as any honour they once had accumulated, has been blown away on KTC express paid ‘training courses’.
It is obvious that once again KTC have been embarrassing caught out, with the usual defamation of character, deceit and misdirection of the facts given to the press regarding those members of the public who are trying to clean out the shambolic Keighley Council hierarchy, those who have caused so much financial damage to this town. The stalwarts are back with the usual insults against those who have the courage to stand and fight against what I can only see as misconduct against personal valour and honesty. The loss of kudos these people sustain with their low level insults being spat out, definitely places them well within the remit of being KTC heroes, and so, yet another all expenses paid ‘training course’ weekend in London is in the bag! (Perks!) David Samuels To all those members of the public now fighting the KTC storm troopers, these low life’s will imply and spread deceitful stories, as yet another deceitful story was told about me outside the Keighley bus station yesterday, just realise these people are so terribly desperate to blacken your name, as any honour they once had accumulated, has been blown away on KTC express paid ‘training courses’. samuels david
  • Score: 0

12:47pm Fri 16 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

Always a 708 Skinhead wrote:
So the troops come out to attack the post by a female. Old age pensioners and women seem to be the favorite targets of those who don't like things posted against the council.
Just waiting for Lonely Green Man to chip in then you have the whole gang here boys... although as usual, nothing to say regarding this new embarrassing story about the clowncil, just a lot of meaningless quips and snipes, when are you going to mention the Boltmakers?
Tick Tock
i wasn't attacking anyone mr.always just pointing out what in my mind was uncalled for insults.i would point out as i always have i don't know anyone innor have i ever been anything to do with the tc i just don't give a **** about it, but of course you wouldnt believe me.btw i stand by what i said i don't care how old someone is their gender,sexual orientation,race etc i just don't like insults for no reason which i'm sorry but that post contained,how do you know shepherd 123 isn't a n old person themselves?
anyway ive said my bit i'll leave you all to your petty squabbles(on both sides)
deckchairs and titanic anyone?
hipperty hop.
[quote][p][bold]Always a 708 Skinhead[/bold] wrote: So the troops come out to attack the post by a female. Old age pensioners and women seem to be the favorite targets of those who don't like things posted against the council. Just waiting for Lonely Green Man to chip in then you have the whole gang here boys... although as usual, nothing to say regarding this new embarrassing story about the clowncil, just a lot of meaningless quips and snipes, when are you going to mention the Boltmakers? Tick Tock[/p][/quote]i wasn't attacking anyone mr.always just pointing out what in my mind was uncalled for insults.i would point out as i always have i don't know anyone innor have i ever been anything to do with the tc i just don't give a **** about it, but of course you wouldnt believe me.btw i stand by what i said i don't care how old someone is their gender,sexual orientation,race etc i just don't like insults for no reason which i'm sorry but that post contained,how do you know shepherd 123 isn't a n old person themselves? anyway ive said my bit i'll leave you all to your petty squabbles(on both sides) deckchairs and titanic anyone? hipperty hop. jimmy k
  • Score: 3

1:06pm Fri 16 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

Always a 708 Skinhead wrote:
So the troops come out to attack the post by a female. Old age pensioners and women seem to be the favorite targets of those who don't like things posted against the council.
Just waiting for Lonely Green Man to chip in then you have the whole gang here boys... although as usual, nothing to say regarding this new embarrassing story about the clowncil, just a lot of meaningless quips and snipes, when are you going to mention the Boltmakers?
Tick Tock
I'll lob my two penn'th in just to puncture your self-satisfied little bubble, 708... I think that the behaviour, practices and secrecy of the Keighley Town Council are utterly despicable and each and every one of them should be removed from office at the earliest available opportunity... just like umpteen local councillors up and down the country who are also useless, wasteful and bent.... and a shed-load of elected members of Parliament of various political leanings, who preach equality and honesty while lining their own pockets with our taxes. That's why I have little to say about the KTC 708... because at my age, I'm frankly astonished that behaviour like theirs shocks anyone. I just always assumed they were bent and incompetent. Being shocked and outraged by it is a bit like suddenly being shocked and outraged that dogs**t stinks... what did you really expect? That when you poked your finger in the pile, it'd smell like sweeties and baby-powder???

In reference to your valued opinion on my retort to Cornishlady's quite rude post... your neither a woman nor a pensioner are you?... but I'm right back at ya... and while we're about it, on the subject of meaningless quips and snipes... "physician, heal thyself"
[quote][p][bold]Always a 708 Skinhead[/bold] wrote: So the troops come out to attack the post by a female. Old age pensioners and women seem to be the favorite targets of those who don't like things posted against the council. Just waiting for Lonely Green Man to chip in then you have the whole gang here boys... although as usual, nothing to say regarding this new embarrassing story about the clowncil, just a lot of meaningless quips and snipes, when are you going to mention the Boltmakers? Tick Tock[/p][/quote]I'll lob my two penn'th in just to puncture your self-satisfied little bubble, 708... I think that the behaviour, practices and secrecy of the Keighley Town Council are utterly despicable and each and every one of them should be removed from office at the earliest available opportunity... just like umpteen local councillors up and down the country who are also useless, wasteful and bent.... and a shed-load of elected members of Parliament of various political leanings, who preach equality and honesty while lining their own pockets with our taxes. That's why I have little to say about the KTC 708... because at my age, I'm frankly astonished that behaviour like theirs shocks anyone. I just always assumed they were bent and incompetent. Being shocked and outraged by it is a bit like suddenly being shocked and outraged that dogs**t stinks... what did you really expect? That when you poked your finger in the pile, it'd smell like sweeties and baby-powder??? In reference to your valued opinion on my retort to Cornishlady's quite rude post... your neither a woman nor a pensioner are you?... but I'm right back at ya... and while we're about it, on the subject of meaningless quips and snipes... "physician, heal thyself" Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 4

1:15pm Fri 16 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Sweet innocent jimmy K, always keen to deny any affiliation with the clowncil, yet always ready to jump in on any article relating to the committee of clowns.
To quote your response to Cornishlady,
"Wow what venom,what insults,why?You'll fit right in on this page Cornishlady.
chip shop"
You may not, in your mind, consider comparing someone to a creature such as a snake or scorpion ( or was this not your intent?) as an attack, but, in my mind, this is exactly what it is.
If, as you so often declare, you have no interest in the Clown Council, why is it then Mr K, that you are one of the more prominent contributors to the many stories which show it as the circus act it is?
The only other explanation I can see is that you follow Mr Samuels around like some sort of lost puppy seeking his attention.
I have seen many posts by you on Clowncil articles, the complete mess they have made of the civic centre, their attempts at oppression of the public regarding filming and now their blackmailing tactics used at the Gala, yet, other than deny any interest in the subject, you never post comments on the actual issue. You seek merely to distract the reader from the subject, attempt to belittle Mr Samuels or boast about having a pint in the Boltmakers.

I would like to point out to you the following definition taken from wikipedia

In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion

Unless you can provide a reasonable explanation for your involvement in these discussions and justify your contributions, all done I might add, behind the safety of concealing your true identity, then I suggest the above extract suits you and your "mates" appropriately.

Now lets hear some reasoned, intelligent input from you, or, quieten down Little Jimmy, the grown ups are talking.

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
Sweet innocent jimmy K, always keen to deny any affiliation with the clowncil, yet always ready to jump in on any article relating to the committee of clowns. To quote your response to Cornishlady, "Wow what venom,what insults,why?You'll fit right in on this page Cornishlady. chip shop" You may not, in your mind, consider comparing someone to a creature such as a snake or scorpion ( or was this not your intent?) as an attack, but, in my mind, this is exactly what it is. If, as you so often declare, you have no interest in the Clown Council, why is it then Mr K, that you are one of the more prominent contributors to the many stories which show it as the circus act it is? The only other explanation I can see is that you follow Mr Samuels around like some sort of lost puppy seeking his attention. I have seen many posts by you on Clowncil articles, the complete mess they have made of the civic centre, their attempts at oppression of the public regarding filming and now their blackmailing tactics used at the Gala, yet, other than deny any interest in the subject, you never post comments on the actual issue. You seek merely to distract the reader from the subject, attempt to belittle Mr Samuels or boast about having a pint in the Boltmakers. I would like to point out to you the following definition taken from wikipedia In Internet slang, a troll (/ˈtroʊl/, /ˈtrɒl/) is a person who sows discord on the Internet by starting arguments or upsetting people, by posting inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a forum, chat room, or blog), either accidentally or with the deliberate intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion Unless you can provide a reasonable explanation for your involvement in these discussions and justify your contributions, all done I might add, behind the safety of concealing your true identity, then I suggest the above extract suits you and your "mates" appropriately. Now lets hear some reasoned, intelligent input from you, or, quieten down Little Jimmy, the grown ups are talking. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: -1

1:16pm Fri 16 Aug 13

samuels david says...

From information I have received this morning, it seems that once again the Town Clerk is undertaking two weeks on sick leave, allegedly because of stress!
I had noticed however that the Town Clerk seemed to be smiling greatly and thoroughly enjoying her day out on the previous day, sitting on the top of the privately owned horse, which was pulling the Keighley Council’s Black Maria, whilst it was noted by many the Town Clerk gesticulated very queenly to her most adoring public.
What may have caused the Lady to have develop such stress within so short a time span during the day is obviously of concern to Keighley as I’m told it seems this present time off for stress is not an isolated occurrence.
A FIA request would indicate the wellbeing of the Keighley Town Clerk and whether or not the Lady should contemplate retiring on health grounds.
If the Town Clerk were to retire it may well be certain members of the Council would also envisage leaving the stage of problems. Problems they themselves had created and that the Keighley public well wish the Civic Centre issues to be cleaned up with fresh eyes and hands. At the same time the operation of the Keighley Town Council could be reinvigorated by others, young, with business acumen and with a strong dose of modern democracy, and thus allowing Keighley to enter the new century, giving freedom for all councillors and allowing them to speak out as for a change.

David Samuels
From information I have received this morning, it seems that once again the Town Clerk is undertaking two weeks on sick leave, allegedly because of stress! I had noticed however that the Town Clerk seemed to be smiling greatly and thoroughly enjoying her day out on the previous day, sitting on the top of the privately owned horse, which was pulling the Keighley Council’s Black Maria, whilst it was noted by many the Town Clerk gesticulated very queenly to her most adoring public. What may have caused the Lady to have develop such stress within so short a time span during the day is obviously of concern to Keighley as I’m told it seems this present time off for stress is not an isolated occurrence. A FIA request would indicate the wellbeing of the Keighley Town Clerk and whether or not the Lady should contemplate retiring on health grounds. If the Town Clerk were to retire it may well be certain members of the Council would also envisage leaving the stage of problems. Problems they themselves had created and that the Keighley public well wish the Civic Centre issues to be cleaned up with fresh eyes and hands. At the same time the operation of the Keighley Town Council could be reinvigorated by others, young, with business acumen and with a strong dose of modern democracy, and thus allowing Keighley to enter the new century, giving freedom for all councillors and allowing them to speak out as for a change. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 3

1:37pm Fri 16 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

Leeds council are allowing filming. I went to a Bradford Council Meeting last month and they allowed filming. Why so secretive Keighley Town Council?. Sales of Asset money being given to the civic centre perhaps, or councillors getting loans and not paying money back or the signing of covenants worrying you at all?
Leeds council are allowing filming. I went to a Bradford Council Meeting last month and they allowed filming. Why so secretive Keighley Town Council?. Sales of Asset money being given to the civic centre perhaps, or councillors getting loans and not paying money back or the signing of covenants worrying you at all? nannatyke
  • Score: 4

1:38pm Fri 16 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

Leeds council are allowing filming. I went to a Bradford Council Meeting last month and they allowed filming. Why so secretive Keighley Town Council?. Sales of Asset money being given to the civic centre perhaps, or councillors getting loans and not paying money back or the signing of covenants worrying you at all?
Leeds council are allowing filming. I went to a Bradford Council Meeting last month and they allowed filming. Why so secretive Keighley Town Council?. Sales of Asset money being given to the civic centre perhaps, or councillors getting loans and not paying money back or the signing of covenants worrying you at all? nannatyke
  • Score: 2

2:13pm Fri 16 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Behind_the_8-Ball, I take you are not my number one fan? No matter, what I cannot understand is that people such as yourself who, while openly admitting to presuming a large scale amount of corruption and deceit exists within the echelons of government, choose to do so little about it.
You are correct I am neither a pensioner nor a woman, but if you consider the posting by Cornishlady to be "quite rude". Then surely you must acknowledge how I can interpret your respons
"In the wake of that post, I'm pretty sure there are a few words with capital letters that Shepherd 13 may now think could be used to describe you, Cornishlady.."
as equally if not more rude.
If you have no wish to assist in bringing the Clowncil to account for it's actions, then that is your choice, but please realise, not all the people of this world wish to remain Behind the eight ball (A difficult position from which it is unlikely one can escape) for ever.
I look forward to reading your reasoned, intelligent posts regarding this matter, you know, the one where Keighley Town Council resorted to the tactics of blackmail to prevent law abiding citizens presenting a legal petition at the local Gala, or as is the case with Jimmy K, my opinion of you will be similar to those described so aptly by Wikipedia. (If the cap fits and all that).

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
Behind_the_8-Ball, I take you are not my number one fan? No matter, what I cannot understand is that people such as yourself who, while openly admitting to presuming a large scale amount of corruption and deceit exists within the echelons of government, choose to do so little about it. You are correct I am neither a pensioner nor a woman, but if you consider the posting by Cornishlady to be "quite rude". Then surely you must acknowledge how I can interpret your respons "In the wake of that post, I'm pretty sure there are a few words with capital letters that Shepherd 13 may now think could be used to describe you, Cornishlady.." as equally if not more rude. If you have no wish to assist in bringing the Clowncil to account for it's actions, then that is your choice, but please realise, not all the people of this world wish to remain Behind the eight ball (A difficult position from which it is unlikely one can escape) for ever. I look forward to reading your reasoned, intelligent posts regarding this matter, you know, the one where Keighley Town Council resorted to the tactics of blackmail to prevent law abiding citizens presenting a legal petition at the local Gala, or as is the case with Jimmy K, my opinion of you will be similar to those described so aptly by Wikipedia. (If the cap fits and all that). Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: -1

4:14pm Fri 16 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

Despite the ill thought out action by a council that appears to see openness and transparency as an invasion of it's proceedings, the gala went ahead and Keighley parishioners enjoyed the day. The petition for the right of parishioners to film and record council meetings is growing, public awareness of K.T.C is growing. On the flip side, the partners in the civic centre are decreasing down to one, thus the civic centre income will also be decreasing which means the expenditure for the council will be increasing. This too and fro is similar to the swing of a pendulum, and it is this too and fro of the pendulum as it releases the escape wheel from the arresting anchor that produces the audible Tick Tock. How long has the pendulum got left to swing, that is the question? Tick Tock
Despite the ill thought out action by a council that appears to see openness and transparency as an invasion of it's proceedings, the gala went ahead and Keighley parishioners enjoyed the day. The petition for the right of parishioners to film and record council meetings is growing, public awareness of K.T.C is growing. On the flip side, the partners in the civic centre are decreasing down to one, thus the civic centre income will also be decreasing which means the expenditure for the council will be increasing. This too and fro is similar to the swing of a pendulum, and it is this too and fro of the pendulum as it releases the escape wheel from the arresting anchor that produces the audible Tick Tock. How long has the pendulum got left to swing, that is the question? Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 4

8:20pm Fri 16 Aug 13

shshsoquiet says...

Why do you guy's always turn these comments pages into slanging matches it really does spoil things for all other readers of this site.
Why cant you just stick to the issues but no you have to always have a pop at each other and it's boring. More people might make comment if it wasn't the same old tediouse rubbish.
What happened on Sunday was disgraceful those children looked amazing so well turned out parents stood proud to see them recive the honour of being the Gala royalty.
To think that the council of this town would even think about pulling out of crowning these young people is a disgrace whis day would they have spoilt not theirs but these young people who braved the rain and still looked amazing. You should be ashamed of yourself mayor of Keighley and councillors it was your duty not your thoughts that had to be oresent on Sunday be ashamed and never act so ridiculously again.
Why do you guy's always turn these comments pages into slanging matches it really does spoil things for all other readers of this site. Why cant you just stick to the issues but no you have to always have a pop at each other and it's boring. More people might make comment if it wasn't the same old tediouse rubbish. What happened on Sunday was disgraceful those children looked amazing so well turned out parents stood proud to see them recive the honour of being the Gala royalty. To think that the council of this town would even think about pulling out of crowning these young people is a disgrace whis day would they have spoilt not theirs but these young people who braved the rain and still looked amazing. You should be ashamed of yourself mayor of Keighley and councillors it was your duty not your thoughts that had to be oresent on Sunday be ashamed and never act so ridiculously again. shshsoquiet
  • Score: 4

9:57pm Fri 16 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

i was going to stay quiet but why should i i do believe it's still a free country so mr. skinhead i will talk about what i feel fit ,you don't have a problem with democracy do you?and if you're a grown up thank goodness i'm young at heart (even if my bald patch says otherwise)i'll let others decide who's the bully here mr.s
chimney pot
i was going to stay quiet but why should i i do believe it's still a free country so mr. skinhead i will talk about what i feel fit ,you don't have a problem with democracy do you?and if you're a grown up thank goodness i'm young at heart (even if my bald patch says otherwise)i'll let others decide who's the bully here mr.s chimney pot jimmy k
  • Score: -1

10:09pm Fri 16 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

btw 708 didn't realise Wikipedia had become the font of all human knowledge and to think i wasted all those years in education.
btw 708 didn't realise Wikipedia had become the font of all human knowledge and to think i wasted all those years in education. jimmy k
  • Score: -1

11:01pm Fri 16 Aug 13

shshsoquiet says...

And still you carry on pathetic give it a rest
And still you carry on pathetic give it a rest shshsoquiet
  • Score: 0

6:20am Sat 17 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

K.T.C got it terribly wrong with the civic centre and made itself look foolish, and is still doing so regarding this utter failure and now expensive waste of precept money. What else will the public be reading about this which makes K.T.C look incompetent? Unfortunately this money wasting fiasco is far from over.

K.T.C then made an utter fool of itself by calling the police to remove ten parishioners, eight of them pensioners, from the town hall because they wanted to film the council meetings. Not only did the council make itself look foolish, it did nothing to help the image of the police in the public’s eye. The fault of the council, not of the police who were responding to what a call from the council had told them.

K.T.C has now added to the list by it's recent heavy handed bungling over the Gala. It was not for the council to influence what the gala committee had agreed to allow by threatening to withdraw from the Gala and take it's bat and ball home, which by the way is paid for by parishioners. Once more K.T.C has created a situation in which it has made itself look utterly foolish, and has shown not only the parishioners of Keighley but the world that it is a council which has become an embarrassment to the town.

We now wait see what the next episode of, `K.T.C, A Council On The Edge`, will bring.

Meanwhile, the clock is still ticking for the external auditors. Tick Tock
K.T.C got it terribly wrong with the civic centre and made itself look foolish, and is still doing so regarding this utter failure and now expensive waste of precept money. What else will the public be reading about this which makes K.T.C look incompetent? Unfortunately this money wasting fiasco is far from over. K.T.C then made an utter fool of itself by calling the police to remove ten parishioners, eight of them pensioners, from the town hall because they wanted to film the council meetings. Not only did the council make itself look foolish, it did nothing to help the image of the police in the public’s eye. The fault of the council, not of the police who were responding to what a call from the council had told them. K.T.C has now added to the list by it's recent heavy handed bungling over the Gala. It was not for the council to influence what the gala committee had agreed to allow by threatening to withdraw from the Gala and take it's bat and ball home, which by the way is paid for by parishioners. Once more K.T.C has created a situation in which it has made itself look utterly foolish, and has shown not only the parishioners of Keighley but the world that it is a council which has become an embarrassment to the town. We now wait see what the next episode of, `K.T.C, A Council On The Edge`, will bring. Meanwhile, the clock is still ticking for the external auditors. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: -1

6:22am Sat 17 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

K.T.C got it terribly wrong with the civic centre and made itself look foolish, and is still doing so regarding this utter failure and now expensive waste of precept money. What else will the public be reading about this which makes K.T.C look incompetent? Unfortunately this money wasting fiasco is far from over.

K.T.C then made an utter fool of itself by calling the police to remove ten parishioners, eight of them pensioners, from the town hall because they wanted to film the council meetings. Not only did the council make itself look foolish, it did nothing to help the image of the police in the public’s eye. The fault of the council, not of the police who were responding to what a call from the council had told them.

K.T.C has now added to the list by it's recent heavy handed bungling over the Gala. It was not for the council to influence what the gala committee had agreed to allow by threatening to withdraw from the Gala and take it's bat and ball home, which by the way is paid for by parishioners. Once more K.T.C has created a situation in which it has made itself look utterly foolish, and has shown not only the parishioners of Keighley but the world that it is a council which has become an embarrassment to the town.

We now wait see what the next episode of, `K.T.C, A Council On The Edge`, will bring.

Meanwhile, the clock is still ticking for the external auditors. Tick Tock
K.T.C got it terribly wrong with the civic centre and made itself look foolish, and is still doing so regarding this utter failure and now expensive waste of precept money. What else will the public be reading about this which makes K.T.C look incompetent? Unfortunately this money wasting fiasco is far from over. K.T.C then made an utter fool of itself by calling the police to remove ten parishioners, eight of them pensioners, from the town hall because they wanted to film the council meetings. Not only did the council make itself look foolish, it did nothing to help the image of the police in the public’s eye. The fault of the council, not of the police who were responding to what a call from the council had told them. K.T.C has now added to the list by it's recent heavy handed bungling over the Gala. It was not for the council to influence what the gala committee had agreed to allow by threatening to withdraw from the Gala and take it's bat and ball home, which by the way is paid for by parishioners. Once more K.T.C has created a situation in which it has made itself look utterly foolish, and has shown not only the parishioners of Keighley but the world that it is a council which has become an embarrassment to the town. We now wait see what the next episode of, `K.T.C, A Council On The Edge`, will bring. Meanwhile, the clock is still ticking for the external auditors. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 0

7:50am Sat 17 Aug 13

samuels david says...

From information I have received this morning, it seems that once again the Town Clerk is undertaking two weeks on sick leave, allegedly because of stress!
I had noticed however that on Sunday perched on the seat of the Council owned Black Maria, being pulled by a private horse, I believe. unless KTC have rushed out to purchase a third horse, the Town Clerk seemed to be smiling greatly and seemed to be thoroughly enjoying her day dispensing and gesticulating very queenly to her most adoring Keighley public.
What may have caused the Lady to have develop such stress within so short a time span during the day is obviously of concern to Keighley precept payers, as I’m told it seems this present time off for stress is not an isolated occurrence.
A FIA request would indicate the wellbeing of the Keighley Town Clerk and whether or not the Lady should contemplate retiring on health grounds.
If the Town Clerk were to retire it may well be that certain Councillors, including the Mayor and her Deputy, all members of the Mismanagement and Stuffing Committee could also envisage leaving the Keighley Council stage.
Such an exodus would obviously solved the many problems I believe the Council themselves had created and that the Keighley public well wish the Civic Centre issues to be financially cleaned up with fresh eyes and clean hands.
Afterwards settle down for short period of quiet consideration with fresh qualified minds and a new beginning if desired. The operation of the Keighley Town Council could be reinvigorated by others, young, with business acumen and with a strong dose of modern democracy, and thus allowing Keighley to enter the new century, giving freedom for all councillors and allowing them to speak out as for a change.
PS. Please note that if a new Keighley Town Council were to arise, I wouldn't touch it from a mile off! The madness of a presumed power within this present KTC has wiped-out the reputations and credibility of many people, some good of course, some basically evil, but never-the-less, the ‘Precious’ of egotism took over the weak minded and greedy!

David Samuels
From information I have received this morning, it seems that once again the Town Clerk is undertaking two weeks on sick leave, allegedly because of stress! I had noticed however that on Sunday perched on the seat of the Council owned Black Maria, being pulled by a private horse, I believe. unless KTC have rushed out to purchase a third horse, the Town Clerk seemed to be smiling greatly and seemed to be thoroughly enjoying her day dispensing and gesticulating very queenly to her most adoring Keighley public. What may have caused the Lady to have develop such stress within so short a time span during the day is obviously of concern to Keighley precept payers, as I’m told it seems this present time off for stress is not an isolated occurrence. A FIA request would indicate the wellbeing of the Keighley Town Clerk and whether or not the Lady should contemplate retiring on health grounds. If the Town Clerk were to retire it may well be that certain Councillors, including the Mayor and her Deputy, all members of the Mismanagement and Stuffing Committee could also envisage leaving the Keighley Council stage. Such an exodus would obviously solved the many problems I believe the Council themselves had created and that the Keighley public well wish the Civic Centre issues to be financially cleaned up with fresh eyes and clean hands. Afterwards settle down for short period of quiet consideration with fresh qualified minds and a new beginning if desired. The operation of the Keighley Town Council could be reinvigorated by others, young, with business acumen and with a strong dose of modern democracy, and thus allowing Keighley to enter the new century, giving freedom for all councillors and allowing them to speak out as for a change. PS. Please note that if a new Keighley Town Council were to arise, I wouldn't touch it from a mile off! The madness of a presumed power within this present KTC has wiped-out the reputations and credibility of many people, some good of course, some basically evil, but never-the-less, the ‘Precious’ of egotism took over the weak minded and greedy! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

11:27am Sat 17 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Mr Forsyth, Cllr Morris was the messenger sent from KTC threatening to partially destroy the Keighley Gala by pulling out the busses etc, unless a small group of people where banned from the Keighley Victoria Park, simply because of a perceived negative view this group had of KTC.

I was a participant of this multifaceted group, a group of differing points of religious views and most certainly of wide-ranging political beliefs. (In fact if one cares to look at the Cavetown Council Facebook and website, I have noticed I appear in individual photographs, one with the left wing Lord Mayor of Bradford and the other with local MP, Kris Hopkins, Conservative, yet as you are aware Mr Forsyth, I am not a member of your Cavetown Council. (Purely because of my personal commitments!)

As you know, we came together solely and purely to address the fact each of us realised that to eradicate the perceived sickness of KTC from Keighley, all and any animosity between races religion and politics must be ended.

It has to be said the some of the signatures I have gathered have been from the many differing religious denominations in Keighley, who as you I, and the others within your group realised, objected to what they saw as the Council’s basic mismanagement of the financial and democratic affairs of Keighley.

Only a very few, not (from Keighley mostly) refused to sign, and all those who did, had wished to make a graphic democratic gesture to Cllr Morris, Chairman of the Allotment Committee, the messenger sent from some of his KTC friends, with their extremely ludicrous attempt to stymie such mild dissent, which with their usual lack of reason or foresight, had never foresaw the obvious consequences of such stupidity.
It was, I believed the most compelling reason for some of the public, stopping and shouting emphatically, ‘give me a pen!’

David Samuels
Mr Forsyth, Cllr Morris was the messenger sent from KTC threatening to partially destroy the Keighley Gala by pulling out the busses etc, unless a small group of people where banned from the Keighley Victoria Park, simply because of a perceived negative view this group had of KTC. I was a participant of this multifaceted group, a group of differing points of religious views and most certainly of wide-ranging political beliefs. (In fact if one cares to look at the Cavetown Council Facebook and website, I have noticed I appear in individual photographs, one with the left wing Lord Mayor of Bradford and the other with local MP, Kris Hopkins, Conservative, yet as you are aware Mr Forsyth, I am not a member of your Cavetown Council. (Purely because of my personal commitments!) As you know, we came together solely and purely to address the fact each of us realised that to eradicate the perceived sickness of KTC from Keighley, all and any animosity between races religion and politics must be ended. It has to be said the some of the signatures I have gathered have been from the many differing religious denominations in Keighley, who as you I, and the others within your group realised, objected to what they saw as the Council’s basic mismanagement of the financial and democratic affairs of Keighley. Only a very few, not (from Keighley mostly) refused to sign, and all those who did, had wished to make a graphic democratic gesture to Cllr Morris, Chairman of the Allotment Committee, the messenger sent from some of his KTC friends, with their extremely ludicrous attempt to stymie such mild dissent, which with their usual lack of reason or foresight, had never foresaw the obvious consequences of such stupidity. It was, I believed the most compelling reason for some of the public, stopping and shouting emphatically, ‘give me a pen!’ David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: -1

12:00pm Sat 17 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

K.T.C has achieved one thing, it has united everyone by it's bungled attempt to stifle legitimate and justifiable dissent, and it's incompetence regarding the harbinger of the 72.6% precept hike, the failed civic centre. It has doomed the town to ridicule on a global scale. And now we await to see what the external auditors will make of the large number of objections they have received from parishioners over how this council has handled it's finances. Tick Tock
K.T.C has achieved one thing, it has united everyone by it's bungled attempt to stifle legitimate and justifiable dissent, and it's incompetence regarding the harbinger of the 72.6% precept hike, the failed civic centre. It has doomed the town to ridicule on a global scale. And now we await to see what the external auditors will make of the large number of objections they have received from parishioners over how this council has handled it's finances. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: -1

6:07pm Sat 17 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Mr Forsyth. I don't believe Keighley Councillors are aware that they can be financially surcharged for continually denying they had no knowledge of the situation surrounding the financial activities of the KTC and the Civic Centre fiasco.
Mrs Bailey, Town Clerk, as the Legally Responsible Officer for Keighley, has each month delivered Monthly Financial Schedules, detailing most of the sums spent by the Council. One would have assumed it included on that dossier all finite details of the sums.
Balance sheets were available to all Councillors to examine and because there is no record of dissent or objection by Councillors it would be assumed, I’ve just been informed by a Qualified Chartered Accountant, those Councillors who agreed to these payments after voting for them, such as horses, tents, lights etc and all the other proven waste and misspent public money could be found liable to be of ‘fiduciary responsibility’, and thus can be surcharged for the losses incurred by the Council.
Recovering such sums is long and expensive, so I hope all those members of the KTC heiriacry who talked the councillors to vote on the annual financial accounts, even though such accounts were not seen by the voting Councillors will be prepared to sell property to recompense the guilable.

David Samuels
Mr Forsyth. I don't believe Keighley Councillors are aware that they can be financially surcharged for continually denying they had no knowledge of the situation surrounding the financial activities of the KTC and the Civic Centre fiasco. Mrs Bailey, Town Clerk, as the Legally Responsible Officer for Keighley, has each month delivered Monthly Financial Schedules, detailing most of the sums spent by the Council. One would have assumed it included on that dossier all finite details of the sums. Balance sheets were available to all Councillors to examine and because there is no record of dissent or objection by Councillors it would be assumed, I’ve just been informed by a Qualified Chartered Accountant, those Councillors who agreed to these payments after voting for them, such as horses, tents, lights etc and all the other proven waste and misspent public money could be found liable to be of ‘fiduciary responsibility’, and thus can be surcharged for the losses incurred by the Council. Recovering such sums is long and expensive, so I hope all those members of the KTC heiriacry who talked the councillors to vote on the annual financial accounts, even though such accounts were not seen by the voting Councillors will be prepared to sell property to recompense the guilable. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: -2

6:19pm Sat 17 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Well Simone you got your wish - I'm here! Seems you are shhhDaves understudy, his training in reading comments and then making up his own version of what was said which bears no resemblance to the original remark is going well - you two are beginning to sound so alike! By the way you're childish name calling (another trait inherited from BlackDavePen) not only doesn't work but makes your serious points much less effective, I would refrain if I were you :)
Well Simone you got your wish - I'm here! Seems you are shhhDaves understudy, his training in reading comments and then making up his own version of what was said which bears no resemblance to the original remark is going well - you two are beginning to sound so alike! By the way you're childish name calling (another trait inherited from BlackDavePen) not only doesn't work but makes your serious points much less effective, I would refrain if I were you :) Little Green Man
  • Score: -4

7:09pm Sat 17 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

Having inspected those accounts Mr Samuels some items on those sheets bear no resemblance to the supporting documents. We shall see what the auditors have to say. I was certainly shocked at what I saw. How they could approve accounts they had never seen is beyond belief. Tick Tock
Having inspected those accounts Mr Samuels some items on those sheets bear no resemblance to the supporting documents. We shall see what the auditors have to say. I was certainly shocked at what I saw. How they could approve accounts they had never seen is beyond belief. Tick Tock nannatyke
  • Score: 3

8:18pm Sat 17 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

Fiduciary: Relating to or of the nature of a legal trust (i.e. the holding of something in trust for another)

That is a very interesting point you raise Mr Samuels, as the PDF document, `Fraud risks in parish and town councils - advice for councillors,` says:

“Individually and collectively councillors are legally responsible for protecting taxpayers’ money and proper control of your council’s finances.”

Voting to approve account not seen I would imagine does not constitute proper control. It will be interesting to see what the external auditors make of all the objections sent to them. Tick Tock
Fiduciary: Relating to or of the nature of a legal trust (i.e. the holding of something in trust for another) That is a very interesting point you raise Mr Samuels, as the PDF document, `Fraud risks in parish and town councils - advice for councillors,` says: “Individually and collectively councillors are legally responsible for protecting taxpayers’ money and proper control of your council’s finances.” Voting to approve account not seen I would imagine does not constitute proper control. It will be interesting to see what the external auditors make of all the objections sent to them. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 0

7:07am Sun 18 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

Mr Samuels, to continue with your posting on councillor liability, this other information is also of interest, well I think it should be for councillors.

In some circumstances councillors are liable


“I visited the High Court Library last year (2003).  A very helpful librarian pointed me to the Atkin's Forms volumes 2002 issue.  In volume 32 (Environment & Public Health) section 23, the book sets out the law as to protection of authorities and officers, which I reproduce below:-
 
"  23. Protection of authorities and officers.
Subject to a proviso concerning "surcharges", the Public health Act 1875 provides that a local authority or one of its members or officers, or any other person acting under the direction of the authority, is exempt from any personal liability for any matter or thing done or for any contract entered into, provided the matter or thing done or the contract was entered into bona fide for the purpose of executing that Act.  Subsequent Public Health and related Acts, including the Building Act 1984, have incorporated the same or similar provision for the purposes of those respective Acts.  This qualified protection is extended further by the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 to embrace all local authorities (as there defined) Act for the purpose of all general and private Acts.
 
Nothing done by, or by a member of, a local authority or by any officer or other person authorised by a local authority by a local authority will, if done in good faith for the purpose of executing Part III of the Environment Protection Act 1990, subject them or any of them personally to any action, liability, claim or demand whatsoever other than the risk of surcharges.
 
A "designated person" exercising powers of entry etc pursuant to the Environment Act 1995 is not liable in any civil or criminal proceedings for anything done in the purported exercise of any relevant power if the court is satisfied that the act was done in good faith and that there were reasonable grounds for doing it.
 
It may be that these various exemptions will not apply to cases of negligence.  "
 
If you ask any officer or councillor if they consider themselves to be immune, they will quite happily answer in the affirmative.  Indeed, most council solicitors advise their members that they have nothing to worry about.  For this reason council's often embark on major exercises of fraud or deception - and never admit to anything - until it's too late.  
 
However, according to Atkins Forms, the actual position is not so clear cut.  If a member or officer knows of wrongdoing, or a cover up, by keeping silent, they become party to the offence and culpable, hence liable - even if they didn't actually hide the facts themselves, doctor documents, give false testimony or acted negligently.  By condoning the impropriety of others they are equally to blame.
 
So, if you are an officer or a member of a council and suspect something is amiss, don't just look the other way.  The law holds that failing to make reasonable enquiries, because one is afraid of what may be discovered, is itself an act of negligence.  Corrupt officers will insist members should take their advice.  If you are given this advice, it's time to start worrying.”
 
http://www.bushywood
.com/members_liabili
ty.htm
Mr Samuels, to continue with your posting on councillor liability, this other information is also of interest, well I think it should be for councillors. In some circumstances councillors are liable “I visited the High Court Library last year (2003).  A very helpful librarian pointed me to the Atkin's Forms volumes 2002 issue.  In volume 32 (Environment & Public Health) section 23, the book sets out the law as to protection of authorities and officers, which I reproduce below:-   "  23. Protection of authorities and officers. Subject to a proviso concerning "surcharges", the Public health Act 1875 provides that a local authority or one of its members or officers, or any other person acting under the direction of the authority, is exempt from any personal liability for any matter or thing done or for any contract entered into, provided the matter or thing done or the contract was entered into bona fide for the purpose of executing that Act.  Subsequent Public Health and related Acts, including the Building Act 1984, have incorporated the same or similar provision for the purposes of those respective Acts.  This qualified protection is extended further by the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 to embrace all local authorities (as there defined) Act for the purpose of all general and private Acts.   Nothing done by, or by a member of, a local authority or by any officer or other person authorised by a local authority by a local authority will, if done in good faith for the purpose of executing Part III of the Environment Protection Act 1990, subject them or any of them personally to any action, liability, claim or demand whatsoever other than the risk of surcharges.   A "designated person" exercising powers of entry etc pursuant to the Environment Act 1995 is not liable in any civil or criminal proceedings for anything done in the purported exercise of any relevant power if the court is satisfied that the act was done in good faith and that there were reasonable grounds for doing it.   It may be that these various exemptions will not apply to cases of negligence.  "   If you ask any officer or councillor if they consider themselves to be immune, they will quite happily answer in the affirmative.  Indeed, most council solicitors advise their members that they have nothing to worry about.  For this reason council's often embark on major exercises of fraud or deception - and never admit to anything - until it's too late.     However, according to Atkins Forms, the actual position is not so clear cut.  If a member or officer knows of wrongdoing, or a cover up, by keeping silent, they become party to the offence and culpable, hence liable - even if they didn't actually hide the facts themselves, doctor documents, give false testimony or acted negligently.  By condoning the impropriety of others they are equally to blame.   So, if you are an officer or a member of a council and suspect something is amiss, don't just look the other way.  The law holds that failing to make reasonable enquiries, because one is afraid of what may be discovered, is itself an act of negligence.  Corrupt officers will insist members should take their advice.  If you are given this advice, it's time to start worrying.”   http://www.bushywood .com/members_liabili ty.htm Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 4

8:37am Sun 18 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

Earlier yesterday, Mr Samuels mentioned that he was a member of a multifaceted group. He most certainly is! It's called LoyalDaveBlackKeighl
eyCurryPen!

The shame is that others, for example Mr Forsyth, make informed, relevant and balanced comments but they are drowned out by the childish, shrill, insulting ramblings of others in his group.

It does them no credit and advances their case not one jot!
Earlier yesterday, Mr Samuels mentioned that he was a member of a multifaceted group. He most certainly is! It's called LoyalDaveBlackKeighl eyCurryPen! The shame is that others, for example Mr Forsyth, make informed, relevant and balanced comments but they are drowned out by the childish, shrill, insulting ramblings of others in his group. It does them no credit and advances their case not one jot! Kingchaser
  • Score: -4

8:49am Sun 18 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Further to your above comments Graham, it is worth noting that councils can and do come under scrutiny and faults are sometimes found.
A recent example is the following taken from a BBC article released on the 13th August 2013.

It is probable "fraudulent activity" took place at Stoke city council, a report has found.

It said there were "serious systemic failings" in the management of a project started to increase business growth in North Staffordshire.

The investigation by the government came after an allegation made to Staffordshire Police in 2010 over the tendering processes at the council.

It said the authority must repay a £1m grant used to pay for the projects.

The report by the Department for Communities and Local Government auditors last October has been released to the BBC under the Freedom of Information Act.

The article is of interest not only as it shows that councils are not immune but if you read further into the article you will find the following.

"It's absolutely horrendous and totally smacks of systemic failings, not only within the local authority but with all the partner agencies that are working together," said Mr Van De Laarschot.

"These are dark days within Stoke on Trent's recent past.

"This is not something that we would condone or indeed something we would like to ever replicate on a go forward basis."

Stoke-on-Trent Labour MP Rob Flello now wants those case files reopened.

Mr Flello said: "I think the CPS needs to be reopening their files and looking at a prosecution in the public interest, that's the first thing I'll be calling for.

"The second is that I shall be asking for the chief executive to write to me assuring me that every possible method has been taken to minimise any possible chance of this happening again."

A call for the reopening of files with the view of prosecutions in the public interest.

Over the past 6 months or so, more and more evidence has come to light regarding the antics of KTC, with each revelation, we are then witness to even more bizarre and disturbing actions by members of the clowncil.
The attempts to blackmail the Gala Committee, followed by the unsubstantiated comments regarding abuse recorded in this article are yet more examples of the ever increasing desperation displayed by certain members at KTC.

The bigger the crime, the more desperate the attempts to conceal it become.
I wonder how desperate the clowns will become, and I wonder how big their crimes will prove to be.

Tick Tock
Simon Mitchell
Further to your above comments Graham, it is worth noting that councils can and do come under scrutiny and faults are sometimes found. A recent example is the following taken from a BBC article released on the 13th August 2013. It is probable "fraudulent activity" took place at Stoke city council, a report has found. It said there were "serious systemic failings" in the management of a project started to increase business growth in North Staffordshire. The investigation by the government came after an allegation made to Staffordshire Police in 2010 over the tendering processes at the council. It said the authority must repay a £1m grant used to pay for the projects. The report by the Department for Communities and Local Government auditors last October has been released to the BBC under the Freedom of Information Act. The article is of interest not only as it shows that councils are not immune but if you read further into the article you will find the following. "It's absolutely horrendous and totally smacks of systemic failings, not only within the local authority but with all the partner agencies that are working together," said Mr Van De Laarschot. "These are dark days within Stoke on Trent's recent past. "This is not something that we would condone or indeed something we would like to ever replicate on a go forward basis." Stoke-on-Trent Labour MP Rob Flello now wants those case files reopened. Mr Flello said: "I think the CPS needs to be reopening their files and looking at a prosecution in the public interest, that's the first thing I'll be calling for. "The second is that I shall be asking for the chief executive to write to me assuring me that every possible method has been taken to minimise any possible chance of this happening again." A call for the reopening of files with the view of prosecutions in the public interest. Over the past 6 months or so, more and more evidence has come to light regarding the antics of KTC, with each revelation, we are then witness to even more bizarre and disturbing actions by members of the clowncil. The attempts to blackmail the Gala Committee, followed by the unsubstantiated comments regarding abuse recorded in this article are yet more examples of the ever increasing desperation displayed by certain members at KTC. The bigger the crime, the more desperate the attempts to conceal it become. I wonder how desperate the clowns will become, and I wonder how big their crimes will prove to be. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 1

10:37am Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Kingchaser
Oh little man of many aliases, my truth is seemingly the instrument which you and your cronies despair of. It is said that in the Keighley Town Council the heiriacry consist of people who outwardly can never admit to mistakes. I dedicate the following ode to your big boss, little man of many aliases.
‘Councillors of Keighley Town, who spin their lies within the web of flawless diction, forget that truth will in the end sort out the fact from fiction.’
Many within Keighley will acknowledge and welcome your praise for Mr Forsyth, as indeed I do as undeniably his comments are informed, relevant and balanced comments. In fact I can’t think of one even one Cavetown Council member who hasn’t the intellect of the total membership of your KTC group.
The thinking processes of you and your band of misfits is so dire that the laughing which you and your mob previously tried to create at the start of Cavetown’s campaign to bring democracy back into our the council has been silenced.
Another of my published comments for your leadership perusal. ‘I know of a local Councilor, who in his who life only had one idea, and even that was wrong!” He’ll like this, not!

David Samuels

Oh little man of many aliases, why is it that you never bting facts to the debate of the honesty within KTC
Kingchaser Oh little man of many aliases, my truth is seemingly the instrument which you and your cronies despair of. It is said that in the Keighley Town Council the heiriacry consist of people who outwardly can never admit to mistakes. I dedicate the following ode to your big boss, little man of many aliases. ‘Councillors of Keighley Town, who spin their lies within the web of flawless diction, forget that truth will in the end sort out the fact from fiction.’ Many within Keighley will acknowledge and welcome your praise for Mr Forsyth, as indeed I do as undeniably his comments are informed, relevant and balanced comments. In fact I can’t think of one even one Cavetown Council member who hasn’t the intellect of the total membership of your KTC group. The thinking processes of you and your band of misfits is so dire that the laughing which you and your mob previously tried to create at the start of Cavetown’s campaign to bring democracy back into our the council has been silenced. Another of my published comments for your leadership perusal. ‘I know of a local Councilor, who in his who life only had one idea, and even that was wrong!” He’ll like this, not! David Samuels Oh little man of many aliases, why is it that you never bting facts to the debate of the honesty within KTC samuels david
  • Score: 0

10:47am Sun 18 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

Simon, I notice Mr Samuels in an earlier posting on this disgraceful gala fiasco stated: “I was a participant of this multifaceted group,a group of differing points of religious views and most certainly of wide-ranging political beliefs,” and does this not show Simon how people will unite when faced with the same problem, which in this case is the fiscally irresponsible K.T.C. As you know Simon, Mr Samuels is independent of our group, Cavetown Council, has never been a member, yet he supports our aims and will give his help as and when he can. However, being independent of our group, Mr Samuels is free to voice his views in whatever manner he deems fit.

Your posting on the Stoke on Trent's council is a boost for such as our group as it shows councils can be made accountable and this helps to keep us all focused and determined to press ahead and hold K.T.C to account. There is a growing public awareness and that is reflected in the support we are attaining. And while we are doing all that we can, I am sure the external auditors will be doing the same in examining the objections sent in regarding K.T.C accounts etc.

Tick Tock
Simon, I notice Mr Samuels in an earlier posting on this disgraceful gala fiasco stated: “I was a participant of this multifaceted group,a group of differing points of religious views and most certainly of wide-ranging political beliefs,” and does this not show Simon how people will unite when faced with the same problem, which in this case is the fiscally irresponsible K.T.C. As you know Simon, Mr Samuels is independent of our group, Cavetown Council, has never been a member, yet he supports our aims and will give his help as and when he can. However, being independent of our group, Mr Samuels is free to voice his views in whatever manner he deems fit. Your posting on the Stoke on Trent's council is a boost for such as our group as it shows councils can be made accountable and this helps to keep us all focused and determined to press ahead and hold K.T.C to account. There is a growing public awareness and that is reflected in the support we are attaining. And while we are doing all that we can, I am sure the external auditors will be doing the same in examining the objections sent in regarding K.T.C accounts etc. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 0

11:15am Sun 18 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

A Keighley man was our Dave,
found it hard, online, to behave,
He'd scream and he'd shout,
then storm off and pout,
without so much as a wave.
A Keighley man was our Dave, found it hard, online, to behave, He'd scream and he'd shout, then storm off and pout, without so much as a wave. Little Green Man
  • Score: 0

11:26am Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

PS
Oh little man of many aliases, your sharp and agile mind may have spotted I had pressed a ‘t’ instead of an ‘r’ in spelling the word ‘BRING’. Obviously, this is a more important fact of life for you than the alleged misappropriation and utter mismanagement of Councils affairs, of which of course you and your masters within KTC are jointly responsible and eventfully will have to finds answers for!
DS
.
PS Oh little man of many aliases, your sharp and agile mind may have spotted I had pressed a ‘t’ instead of an ‘r’ in spelling the word ‘BRING’. Obviously, this is a more important fact of life for you than the alleged misappropriation and utter mismanagement of Councils affairs, of which of course you and your masters within KTC are jointly responsible and eventfully will have to finds answers for! DS . samuels david
  • Score: 1

11:27am Sun 18 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

There are still more revealing articles available for those interested in matters of a similar nature to the ones being experienced by Keighley people.
Here's one from the 9th Aug 2013.

Information watchdogs have warned Wirral Council it needs to step up its commitment to openness and transparency.

The council’s chief executive will be obliged to sign an official undertaking formalising that the authority is committed to its legal obligations under Freedom of Information law.

The town hall will also be under close scrutiny for the next three months and will have to give regular updates on its FoI performance – as well as providing adequate staff and resources to make sure it is up to speed.

The moves follow a warning shot fired by the Information Commissioner’s Office last December telling the council it would be monitoring its response times to Freedom of Information requests.

No doubt this is the path on which Keighley Clowncil is currently stumbling, the self appointed generals leading, the somewhat shell shocked and battle weary troops blinding along this course.

The only hope I believe, that the council has of avoiding this, would be for some of those who are currently quite happy to sit back and be led by the chosen few, to actually fulfill their duties and act in the best interests of the public.
Of course this would mean they would actually have to stand up to the bullies and perhaps take some of the abuse and insults themselves.
Hopefully, the actions of Mr Samuels and Cavetown may show them that this course of action is possible.
It is worth noting that despite the public humiliation and personal abuse which has been endured by several members of Cavetown over recent months, along with that suffered by Mr Samuels over a much longer term, that the support of the public is growing daily.
That along with the very public support from Kris Hopkins MP and the regular negative references regarding Keighley Town Council by Eric Pickles MP, must surely help the silent majority at KTC to see the error of their ways.

If not, then those who were elected in good faith to serve the best interests of Keighley and not the egos of a select group, deserve to be held to account along with those who they serve.

Tick Tock
There are still more revealing articles available for those interested in matters of a similar nature to the ones being experienced by Keighley people. Here's one from the 9th Aug 2013. Information watchdogs have warned Wirral Council it needs to step up its commitment to openness and transparency. The council’s chief executive will be obliged to sign an official undertaking formalising that the authority is committed to its legal obligations under Freedom of Information law. The town hall will also be under close scrutiny for the next three months and will have to give regular updates on its FoI performance – as well as providing adequate staff and resources to make sure it is up to speed. The moves follow a warning shot fired by the Information Commissioner’s Office last December telling the council it would be monitoring its response times to Freedom of Information requests. No doubt this is the path on which Keighley Clowncil is currently stumbling, the self appointed generals leading, the somewhat shell shocked and battle weary troops blinding along this course. The only hope I believe, that the council has of avoiding this, would be for some of those who are currently quite happy to sit back and be led by the chosen few, to actually fulfill their duties and act in the best interests of the public. Of course this would mean they would actually have to stand up to the bullies and perhaps take some of the abuse and insults themselves. Hopefully, the actions of Mr Samuels and Cavetown may show them that this course of action is possible. It is worth noting that despite the public humiliation and personal abuse which has been endured by several members of Cavetown over recent months, along with that suffered by Mr Samuels over a much longer term, that the support of the public is growing daily. That along with the very public support from Kris Hopkins MP and the regular negative references regarding Keighley Town Council by Eric Pickles MP, must surely help the silent majority at KTC to see the error of their ways. If not, then those who were elected in good faith to serve the best interests of Keighley and not the egos of a select group, deserve to be held to account along with those who they serve. Tick Tock Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 1

11:46am Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Lonely Green Man, or Oh little man of many aliases, my response to your silliness is as follows.
Why not use your limited talent by trying to rectify the huge financial damage you and your mob have created in Keighley. First get your boss man to retire, then persuade the rest of his gang that time is running out and that truth for him and yourselves will not be a happy experience.
Remember, Oh little man of many aliases, that the trouble with what little power you gained in life by your cruel and nasty actions has cost you the respect of many people.

David Samuels
Lonely Green Man, or Oh little man of many aliases, my response to your silliness is as follows. Why not use your limited talent by trying to rectify the huge financial damage you and your mob have created in Keighley. First get your boss man to retire, then persuade the rest of his gang that time is running out and that truth for him and yourselves will not be a happy experience. Remember, Oh little man of many aliases, that the trouble with what little power you gained in life by your cruel and nasty actions has cost you the respect of many people. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

11:52am Sun 18 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

And yet another article of relevance for those genuinely interested in the subject of the failings at KTC.
This one from the 12th June 2013.

A district council has taken control of a chaotic parish council after six members were urged to resign in front of scores of villagers.
Deputy leader of Blaby District Council Tony Greenwood stood before a parish meeting in Kirby Muxloe and offered the panel of six councillors an ultimatum.
He gave them two choices: to allow the continuation of a petition calling for the district's intervention or to resign on the spot.
Coun Greenwood warned the panel the petition would succeed – and produced six resignation forms from his bag.

The move followed years of failures at the parish council, which were recently brought to light in an Audit Commission report which criticised numerous aspects of its governance.
All six councillors signed that night, leaving only four, who had not attended the meeting.
It means the parish council does not have enough members to make official decisions, leaving the district to assume automatic control.
The next step will see Blaby District Council install a parish authority to run the parish until a by-election is held.
Blaby council leader Councillor Ernie White said: "This situation has brought parish councils into a really bad light.
"It's almost unheard of for a parish council to act the way it has over the past few years.


So for anyone reading this, who may think that Town Councils would not act in such underhand ways, or indeed believe that there is little that can be done about these wayward councils, hopefully the 3 different articles referenced will show them that things can and do happen.

Sign the petition. Add your voice to the growing number who are showing this council that it is no longer acceptable to treat the electorate with contempt and abuse the public purse for their own fanciful grandiose schemes.

Tick Tock
And yet another article of relevance for those genuinely interested in the subject of the failings at KTC. This one from the 12th June 2013. A district council has taken control of a chaotic parish council after six members were urged to resign in front of scores of villagers. Deputy leader of Blaby District Council Tony Greenwood stood before a parish meeting in Kirby Muxloe and offered the panel of six councillors an ultimatum. He gave them two choices: to allow the continuation of a petition calling for the district's intervention or to resign on the spot. Coun Greenwood warned the panel the petition would succeed – and produced six resignation forms from his bag. The move followed years of failures at the parish council, which were recently brought to light in an Audit Commission report which criticised numerous aspects of its governance. All six councillors signed that night, leaving only four, who had not attended the meeting. It means the parish council does not have enough members to make official decisions, leaving the district to assume automatic control. The next step will see Blaby District Council install a parish authority to run the parish until a by-election is held. Blaby council leader Councillor Ernie White said: "This situation has brought parish councils into a really bad light. "It's almost unheard of for a parish council to act the way it has over the past few years. So for anyone reading this, who may think that Town Councils would not act in such underhand ways, or indeed believe that there is little that can be done about these wayward councils, hopefully the 3 different articles referenced will show them that things can and do happen. Sign the petition. Add your voice to the growing number who are showing this council that it is no longer acceptable to treat the electorate with contempt and abuse the public purse for their own fanciful grandiose schemes. Tick Tock Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 0

11:52am Sun 18 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

And yet another article of relevance for those genuinely interested in the subject of the failings at KTC.
This one from the 12th June 2013.

A district council has taken control of a chaotic parish council after six members were urged to resign in front of scores of villagers.
Deputy leader of Blaby District Council Tony Greenwood stood before a parish meeting in Kirby Muxloe and offered the panel of six councillors an ultimatum.
He gave them two choices: to allow the continuation of a petition calling for the district's intervention or to resign on the spot.
Coun Greenwood warned the panel the petition would succeed – and produced six resignation forms from his bag.

The move followed years of failures at the parish council, which were recently brought to light in an Audit Commission report which criticised numerous aspects of its governance.
All six councillors signed that night, leaving only four, who had not attended the meeting.
It means the parish council does not have enough members to make official decisions, leaving the district to assume automatic control.
The next step will see Blaby District Council install a parish authority to run the parish until a by-election is held.
Blaby council leader Councillor Ernie White said: "This situation has brought parish councils into a really bad light.
"It's almost unheard of for a parish council to act the way it has over the past few years.


So for anyone reading this, who may think that Town Councils would not act in such underhand ways, or indeed believe that there is little that can be done about these wayward councils, hopefully the 3 different articles referenced will show them that things can and do happen.

Sign the petition. Add your voice to the growing number who are showing this council that it is no longer acceptable to treat the electorate with contempt and abuse the public purse for their own fanciful grandiose schemes.

Tick Tock
And yet another article of relevance for those genuinely interested in the subject of the failings at KTC. This one from the 12th June 2013. A district council has taken control of a chaotic parish council after six members were urged to resign in front of scores of villagers. Deputy leader of Blaby District Council Tony Greenwood stood before a parish meeting in Kirby Muxloe and offered the panel of six councillors an ultimatum. He gave them two choices: to allow the continuation of a petition calling for the district's intervention or to resign on the spot. Coun Greenwood warned the panel the petition would succeed – and produced six resignation forms from his bag. The move followed years of failures at the parish council, which were recently brought to light in an Audit Commission report which criticised numerous aspects of its governance. All six councillors signed that night, leaving only four, who had not attended the meeting. It means the parish council does not have enough members to make official decisions, leaving the district to assume automatic control. The next step will see Blaby District Council install a parish authority to run the parish until a by-election is held. Blaby council leader Councillor Ernie White said: "This situation has brought parish councils into a really bad light. "It's almost unheard of for a parish council to act the way it has over the past few years. So for anyone reading this, who may think that Town Councils would not act in such underhand ways, or indeed believe that there is little that can be done about these wayward councils, hopefully the 3 different articles referenced will show them that things can and do happen. Sign the petition. Add your voice to the growing number who are showing this council that it is no longer acceptable to treat the electorate with contempt and abuse the public purse for their own fanciful grandiose schemes. Tick Tock Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 0

12:21pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

Simon, I have had a reply from the Information Commissioners Office regarding a complaint I sent in due to what I saw as a failure by K.T.C. to respond correctly to a recent F.O.I request, and my further complaint about the information K.T.C provided. The I.C.O have upheld my complaint and have written to K.T.C asking them to review my request and get back to me within twenty working days, as from 7 August 2013. A failure to do so and I can go back to the I.C.O to have have them deal furthest with this matter. It is not the first time I have had to complain to the I.C.O regarding K.T.C, and I know other members of our group have had to do the same. Not a good endorsement of a council that on it's website states:

“Keighley Council strives to be open and accessible to everyone ..”

It is groups like Cavetown Council that will help to make councils like K.T.C strive even harder and attain the level of openness that has so far eluded them, despite all their striving.

Tick Tock
Simon, I have had a reply from the Information Commissioners Office regarding a complaint I sent in due to what I saw as a failure by K.T.C. to respond correctly to a recent F.O.I request, and my further complaint about the information K.T.C provided. The I.C.O have upheld my complaint and have written to K.T.C asking them to review my request and get back to me within twenty working days, as from 7 August 2013. A failure to do so and I can go back to the I.C.O to have have them deal furthest with this matter. It is not the first time I have had to complain to the I.C.O regarding K.T.C, and I know other members of our group have had to do the same. Not a good endorsement of a council that on it's website states: “Keighley Council strives to be open and accessible to everyone ..” It is groups like Cavetown Council that will help to make councils like K.T.C strive even harder and attain the level of openness that has so far eluded them, despite all their striving. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 2

1:10pm Sun 18 Aug 13

MarkPullen says...

Cornishlady wrote:
To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............

and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics
shepherd 13 doesn't though! ;-)
[quote][p][bold]Cornishlady[/bold] wrote: To have a battleground Shepherd 13 you have to have a battle....there was no such thing......all contact has been done with the utmost decorum....watch the video, read the comments............ and remember Keighley has a capital letter as does God! Not sure which school you went to BUT surely they taught you the basics[/p][/quote]shepherd 13 doesn't though! ;-) MarkPullen
  • Score: 2

1:33pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Dave old pal your comment only makes sense if you think I'm in some way connected to KTC. I've made it clear many times that I'm not and you have no proof otherwise, that you continue to think that I am makes you the silly one doesn't it?. Similarly, I do not have an alias here - I don't need one, you on the other hand have been shown to have several. Who's silly? Oh, by the way, the cocktails by the pool here are rather nice - personally I'm a bitter in the Boltmakers man but when in foreign lands one should make an effort to have fun, right?
Dave old pal your comment only makes sense if you think I'm in some way connected to KTC. I've made it clear many times that I'm not and you have no proof otherwise, that you continue to think that I am makes you the silly one doesn't it?. Similarly, I do not have an alias here - I don't need one, you on the other hand have been shown to have several. Who's silly? Oh, by the way, the cocktails by the pool here are rather nice - personally I'm a bitter in the Boltmakers man but when in foreign lands one should make an effort to have fun, right? Little Green Man
  • Score: 1

2:27pm Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Simon, knowing a majority of Keighley Town Councilors for many years, it is my considered view that the ego imbedded into the intellect of some of these people does not permit them to accept they have every done anything wrong.

Everything, they say, has been the flaws of others, and yes, a few minor and technical financial faults have unfortunately occurred, but obviously by constantly changing the membership of committees, in Council, as has happened, then eventfully all will come right.

It was inevitable, management will say, that one can’t insure against all mistakes, fraud, or just plain stupidity as no member of staff, let alone the thirty all expenses paid councilors are can be ‘Insurance Bonded’ requiring them all to be of a high quality background.

High intellectual requirements are not a legally required prerequisite for candidature of office.
Mental, physical health, criminal background, or the requirement of any basic CTB check is necessity for a person to stand as a Councilor.

Unfortunately, the historty of our past five hundred years or more of barbaric rule has relied on good honest people to root out any misdemeanors which comes to life and it is possible that some transgressions by KTC may have been made and that a full investigation is needed.

That KTC is not prepared to accept even the cursory of a critique because of their lack of transparency, obviously causes some suggestion that possibly, Cavetown Council Members, and many others, including myself have grounds for concerns, especially of the much vaulted self promoting ‘wellbeing that Keighley Town Council makes boast of.

When serious thought and debate of fundamental issues are required, the nitpicking and scurrilous comments by the childish supporters and fellow travelers of KTC, pathetically underlines the fragility of KTC’s case of having any honest and meaningful dialogue with those who criticize.

I concur with your ‘Sign the petition plea.’ Only then, I believe can the public make the ostrich mentality of KTC prove, or not, to a growing number of the Keighley public that the activities of this Council are not an abuse of the public purse.

David Samuels
Simon, knowing a majority of Keighley Town Councilors for many years, it is my considered view that the ego imbedded into the intellect of some of these people does not permit them to accept they have every done anything wrong. Everything, they say, has been the flaws of others, and yes, a few minor and technical financial faults have unfortunately occurred, but obviously by constantly changing the membership of committees, in Council, as has happened, then eventfully all will come right. It was inevitable, management will say, that one can’t insure against all mistakes, fraud, or just plain stupidity as no member of staff, let alone the thirty all expenses paid councilors are can be ‘Insurance Bonded’ requiring them all to be of a high quality background. High intellectual requirements are not a legally required prerequisite for candidature of office. Mental, physical health, criminal background, or the requirement of any basic CTB check is necessity for a person to stand as a Councilor. Unfortunately, the historty of our past five hundred years or more of barbaric rule has relied on good honest people to root out any misdemeanors which comes to life and it is possible that some transgressions by KTC may have been made and that a full investigation is needed. That KTC is not prepared to accept even the cursory of a critique because of their lack of transparency, obviously causes some suggestion that possibly, Cavetown Council Members, and many others, including myself have grounds for concerns, especially of the much vaulted self promoting ‘wellbeing that Keighley Town Council makes boast of. When serious thought and debate of fundamental issues are required, the nitpicking and scurrilous comments by the childish supporters and fellow travelers of KTC, pathetically underlines the fragility of KTC’s case of having any honest and meaningful dialogue with those who criticize. I concur with your ‘Sign the petition plea.’ Only then, I believe can the public make the ostrich mentality of KTC prove, or not, to a growing number of the Keighley public that the activities of this Council are not an abuse of the public purse. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

2:45pm Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Lonely Green Man, as Shakespeare once said, and the world remembers.
‘Methinks he protest to loudly!” and should you be drinking alcohol with your past history and present problems?
Go home, take your medication, tomorrow is a busy day for you young man sorting out KTC problems, because once again the Town Clerk is off sick, with stress I'm told. I sincerely hope that you're not responsible because of your well known sense of humor, if so you must stop all this childish behavior as you may possibly be harming others, and you really would want to do that would you!. .

David Samuels
Lonely Green Man, as Shakespeare once said, and the world remembers. ‘Methinks he protest to loudly!” and should you be drinking alcohol with your past history and present problems? Go home, take your medication, tomorrow is a busy day for you young man sorting out KTC problems, because once again the Town Clerk is off sick, with stress I'm told. I sincerely hope that you're not responsible because of your well known sense of humor, if so you must stop all this childish behavior as you may possibly be harming others, and you really would want to do that would you!. . David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

3:23pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

He also said "Better a witty fool than a foolish wit", "the empty vessel makes the loudest sound" and (one for Graham) "Brevity is the soul of wit". The quote you were groping for Dave is actually "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" but then I wouldn't put is past you to try re-writng Shakespeare to make your point. See you down the Boltmakers when I get back? It's about time we had a drink together again old friend :)
He also said "Better a witty fool than a foolish wit", "the empty vessel makes the loudest sound" and (one for Graham) "Brevity is the soul of wit". The quote you were groping for Dave is actually "The lady doth protest too much, methinks" but then I wouldn't put is past you to try re-writng Shakespeare to make your point. See you down the Boltmakers when I get back? It's about time we had a drink together again old friend :) Little Green Man
  • Score: -1

3:25pm Sun 18 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

do any of you lot really think your helping your cause by insulting anyone who has the slightest word against you.for what it's worth not that you'll believe me i think you probably have a point and if any corruptness is in the tc it needs to be rooted out.the only reason i come on here and wind some of you up is the hypocrisy some of you show which i can't stand in any walk of life.
do any of you lot really think your helping your cause by insulting anyone who has the slightest word against you.for what it's worth not that you'll believe me i think you probably have a point and if any corruptness is in the tc it needs to be rooted out.the only reason i come on here and wind some of you up is the hypocrisy some of you show which i can't stand in any walk of life. jimmy k
  • Score: 0

4:25pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Nicely put JK but be careful with your capitals, you missed a few in there :P
Nicely put JK but be careful with your capitals, you missed a few in there :P Little Green Man
  • Score: -1

4:32pm Sun 18 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

Lol lgm,the wrath of the pasties will come raining down on me.
Lol lgm,the wrath of the pasties will come raining down on me. jimmy k
  • Score: -1

4:42pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Well save a few for me, still even here in the back of far eastern beyond I can purchase a fair tasty chicken pie, beers not up to much though...
Well save a few for me, still even here in the back of far eastern beyond I can purchase a fair tasty chicken pie, beers not up to much though... Little Green Man
  • Score: -2

5:20pm Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Oh little man of many aliases, why not wind up bad people, as I do, it's much more satisfying and unlike your good self I stopped groping many year ago, unless the quote is of vital importance, being pedantic just to show off, I find is rather embarrassing and vulgar, but hey ho, as has been said many times before, which you well understand Oh little man of many aliases, ‘The worst place to be is on the receiving end of truth!
PS All the good people of Keighley had thought you were back on one your, imaginary worldwide holidays, When the Keighley Town Clerk comes back from being stressed, see if a chit is available for another of your so-called training course, not London, try somewhere exotic, it’s still free to Councillors and Staff, of high standing and intelligenge, but may possibly be ended soon!

David Samuels
Oh little man of many aliases, why not wind up bad people, as I do, it's much more satisfying and unlike your good self I stopped groping many year ago, unless the quote is of vital importance, being pedantic just to show off, I find is rather embarrassing and vulgar, but hey ho, as has been said many times before, which you well understand Oh little man of many aliases, ‘The worst place to be is on the receiving end of truth! PS All the good people of Keighley had thought you were back on one your, imaginary worldwide holidays, When the Keighley Town Clerk comes back from being stressed, see if a chit is available for another of your so-called training course, not London, try somewhere exotic, it’s still free to Councillors and Staff, of high standing and intelligenge, but may possibly be ended soon! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: -2

5:27pm Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

PS
Cavetown Readers and seekers of the truth, what you read from the measured intelligent KT Councillors on this page demonstrates the reason Keighley Town Council lost its grip on financial reality.

David Samuels
PS Cavetown Readers and seekers of the truth, what you read from the measured intelligent KT Councillors on this page demonstrates the reason Keighley Town Council lost its grip on financial reality. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

5:31pm Sun 18 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

We took the petition to Keighley yesterday. It was very successful but what surprised me was the number of people concerned about allotments. The sale of the Skipton Road ones to fund the civic centre, made some worried that the same was about to happen up Guardhouse with the allotments there.. We shall have to keep our eye on that. I know that the Bradford Council passed about 4.2 acres at Hog Holes to Keighley Council and strangely enough 4.2 acres at Hog Holes went up for wale on Rightmove shortly after. When I enquired about it with the clerk, it suddenly got taken off sale.
We took the petition to Keighley yesterday. It was very successful but what surprised me was the number of people concerned about allotments. The sale of the Skipton Road ones to fund the civic centre, made some worried that the same was about to happen up Guardhouse with the allotments there.. We shall have to keep our eye on that. I know that the Bradford Council passed about 4.2 acres at Hog Holes to Keighley Council and strangely enough 4.2 acres at Hog Holes went up for wale on Rightmove shortly after. When I enquired about it with the clerk, it suddenly got taken off sale. nannatyke
  • Score: 1

5:38pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

Little Green Man wrote:
Dave old pal your comment only makes sense if you think I'm in some way connected to KTC. I've made it clear many times that I'm not and you have no proof otherwise, that you continue to think that I am makes you the silly one doesn't it?. Similarly, I do not have an alias here - I don't need one, you on the other hand have been shown to have several. Who's silly? Oh, by the way, the cocktails by the pool here are rather nice - personally I'm a bitter in the Boltmakers man but when in foreign lands one should make an effort to have fun, right?
I dont wish to speak for him but LGM and I may have several things in common:

We have both been wrongly accused by LoyalBlackDaveKeighl
ey of having connections with KTC.

We both think Dave's predisposition to fling muck at anyone who disagrees with him and/or questions his approach is extremely unpalatable and shows deep character flaws.

We are both currently outside of the UK. I don't like cocktails though!

I fully expect currydaveloyalchips to write back and then use one of his aliases to agree with himself. Just don't Roget to change your sign-on Davie! You know you sometimes forget!

In the meantime the other members of your group will, if they haven't already, begin to despair of your antics and distance themselves from you. What then? You start slagging them off too?
[quote][p][bold]Little Green Man[/bold] wrote: Dave old pal your comment only makes sense if you think I'm in some way connected to KTC. I've made it clear many times that I'm not and you have no proof otherwise, that you continue to think that I am makes you the silly one doesn't it?. Similarly, I do not have an alias here - I don't need one, you on the other hand have been shown to have several. Who's silly? Oh, by the way, the cocktails by the pool here are rather nice - personally I'm a bitter in the Boltmakers man but when in foreign lands one should make an effort to have fun, right?[/p][/quote]I dont wish to speak for him but LGM and I may have several things in common: We have both been wrongly accused by LoyalBlackDaveKeighl ey of having connections with KTC. We both think Dave's predisposition to fling muck at anyone who disagrees with him and/or questions his approach is extremely unpalatable and shows deep character flaws. We are both currently outside of the UK. I don't like cocktails though! I fully expect currydaveloyalchips to write back and then use one of his aliases to agree with himself. Just don't Roget to change your sign-on Davie! You know you sometimes forget! In the meantime the other members of your group will, if they haven't already, begin to despair of your antics and distance themselves from you. What then? You start slagging them off too? Kingchaser
  • Score: 0

5:41pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

If it's not correct Dave then its not a quote is it? You might be surprised to hear it but they do have the internet in other countries so despite being in faraway places I can actually keep up with you old pal. I'm sorry if this sounds pedantic but if you are going to use the word 'intelligence' then you might want to try and spell it correctly?
If it's not correct Dave then its not a quote is it? You might be surprised to hear it but they do have the internet in other countries so despite being in faraway places I can actually keep up with you old pal. I'm sorry if this sounds pedantic but if you are going to use the word 'intelligence' then you might want to try and spell it correctly? Little Green Man
  • Score: -1

5:43pm Sun 18 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

In sooth I know not why I am so sad!
In sooth I know not why I am so sad! Kingchaser
  • Score: -3

5:58pm Sun 18 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

i just want to know what ds meant when he said he stopped groping years ago!!!!!
i just want to know what ds meant when he said he stopped groping years ago!!!!! jimmy k
  • Score: -1

6:49pm Sun 18 Aug 13

notthecivic says...

dear cavetowners you ask for openness and transparancy , well how open can the council be for you , EVERY COUNCIL MEETING IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC SO THAT THE PUBLIC CAN SEE WHAT GOES ON IN THEM , ALL PAPERWORK IS PUBLISHED ONLINE , CAVE TOWN THEM SELVES HAVE PUBLISHED MANY TIMES THE TREASURERS ACCOUNTS ON THEIR SITE , THE PUBLIC GALLERY FOR FULL TOWN COUNCIL IS OPEN TO ALL BUT IS USUALLY THE SAME 5 OR 6 PEOPLE , if members of the public want to come and see the full town council meetings would the cavetown folk give up their seats? committee meetings are open to the public also , so mr samuels and the other folk that keep going on about openness and transparency please give others a chance to go and see these meetings and stop filling these threads with your silly comments , always spare seats in these meetings tells me that everything does not revolve around cavetown .
dear cavetowners you ask for openness and transparancy , well how open can the council be for you , EVERY COUNCIL MEETING IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC SO THAT THE PUBLIC CAN SEE WHAT GOES ON IN THEM , ALL PAPERWORK IS PUBLISHED ONLINE , CAVE TOWN THEM SELVES HAVE PUBLISHED MANY TIMES THE TREASURERS ACCOUNTS ON THEIR SITE , THE PUBLIC GALLERY FOR FULL TOWN COUNCIL IS OPEN TO ALL BUT IS USUALLY THE SAME 5 OR 6 PEOPLE , if members of the public want to come and see the full town council meetings would the cavetown folk give up their seats? committee meetings are open to the public also , so mr samuels and the other folk that keep going on about openness and transparency please give others a chance to go and see these meetings and stop filling these threads with your silly comments , always spare seats in these meetings tells me that everything does not revolve around cavetown . notthecivic
  • Score: -1

10:03pm Sun 18 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Wow! A wonderful evening meal, with my wife, my friends and family and all fully paid for!
We ate in a wonderful restaurant in Cross Hills, no need to go abroad tonight!
Have come back home to find Lonely Green Man and his many aliases don’t seem to love me anymore, an old man not able to physically move as he would wish, and so unloved! Shame!
I was however as usual, impressed by LGM’s diatribe regarding the full transparency of KTC, that really cheered me up.
As not being allowed a pudding because of my health, Lonely Green Man’s ranting gobble-de-gook I swallowed with all the joy of a large mint ice cream!
LGM your writing to me is a joy to see and read, and as I had said to my friends this evening, the intelligence in its misrepresentation of the truth gives me the strength to carry on.
Bless you man of many aliases. I just hope however you’ve lost the will, and urge, to strike old people since last time we met, but on the other hand I have no wish for you to kiss me, there’s too much of that I understand in KTC chambers!
Please hurry back from your most exciting mystery illusionary holiday, because many would wish to see all your wonderful illusionary pictures. Maybe if you send them to Cavetowncouncil.moon
fruit.com, those nice honest, trustworthy people may publish them all.
As I have no sway at all however with these people, offer to send them a few pounds for which to pay the 60p stamps Graham Mitchell said it would cost old age pensioners, to run your well organized Civic Centre, who the public is now informed, has no more ‘Partners’. (Having at last wised up to the KTC tactics?)

All you many aliases make him take his medication so you all can have a jolly good night’s sleep. xxx

David Samuels

PS all those spare seats at KTC I had thought you'd sold them all to your family members, How wrong could i be!
Wow! A wonderful evening meal, with my wife, my friends and family and all fully paid for! We ate in a wonderful restaurant in Cross Hills, no need to go abroad tonight! Have come back home to find Lonely Green Man and his many aliases don’t seem to love me anymore, an old man not able to physically move as he would wish, and so unloved! Shame! I was however as usual, impressed by LGM’s diatribe regarding the full transparency of KTC, that really cheered me up. As not being allowed a pudding because of my health, Lonely Green Man’s ranting gobble-de-gook I swallowed with all the joy of a large mint ice cream! LGM your writing to me is a joy to see and read, and as I had said to my friends this evening, the intelligence in its misrepresentation of the truth gives me the strength to carry on. Bless you man of many aliases. I just hope however you’ve lost the will, and urge, to strike old people since last time we met, but on the other hand I have no wish for you to kiss me, there’s too much of that I understand in KTC chambers! Please hurry back from your most exciting mystery illusionary holiday, because many would wish to see all your wonderful illusionary pictures. Maybe if you send them to Cavetowncouncil.moon fruit.com, those nice honest, trustworthy people may publish them all. As I have no sway at all however with these people, offer to send them a few pounds for which to pay the 60p stamps Graham Mitchell said it would cost old age pensioners, to run your well organized Civic Centre, who the public is now informed, has no more ‘Partners’. (Having at last wised up to the KTC tactics?) All you many aliases make him take his medication so you all can have a jolly good night’s sleep. xxx David Samuels PS all those spare seats at KTC I had thought you'd sold them all to your family members, How wrong could i be! samuels david
  • Score: 1

12:20am Mon 19 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

In the words of Catherine Tate 'what a load of old sh1te!' Dave, you may have foregone dessert but lay off the brandy's eh?

Davecurryloyalpenbla
ckchips et al. Twenty three pence is a fortune! But less than you added to the cost of a daily loaf in your Oxenhope shopkeeping days many years ago!
In the words of Catherine Tate 'what a load of old sh1te!' Dave, you may have foregone dessert but lay off the brandy's eh? Davecurryloyalpenbla ckchips et al. Twenty three pence is a fortune! But less than you added to the cost of a daily loaf in your Oxenhope shopkeeping days many years ago! Kingchaser
  • Score: -2

7:53am Mon 19 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

notthecivic wrote:
dear cavetowners you ask for openness and transparancy , well how open can the council be for you , EVERY COUNCIL MEETING IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC SO THAT THE PUBLIC CAN SEE WHAT GOES ON IN THEM , ALL PAPERWORK IS PUBLISHED ONLINE , CAVE TOWN THEM SELVES HAVE PUBLISHED MANY TIMES THE TREASURERS ACCOUNTS ON THEIR SITE , THE PUBLIC GALLERY FOR FULL TOWN COUNCIL IS OPEN TO ALL BUT IS USUALLY THE SAME 5 OR 6 PEOPLE , if members of the public want to come and see the full town council meetings would the cavetown folk give up their seats? committee meetings are open to the public also , so mr samuels and the other folk that keep going on about openness and transparency please give others a chance to go and see these meetings and stop filling these threads with your silly comments , always spare seats in these meetings tells me that everything does not revolve around cavetown .
How transparently accurate were the minutes from the council meeting held June 2013 in which Cllr Graham Mitchell referred to members of the public as swivel-eyes loons, yet this was never recorded in the minutes for that meeting as it should have been. However, the Keighley News reporter was there, along with Cavetown Council members, and this comment was recorded, which can be read here, Thursday 13th June 2013 ,Keighley Town Council member hits out at 'swivel-eyed loons'. This is the reason why K.T.C meetings need to be independently filmed and recorded.

You say notthecivic.

“if members of the public want to come and see the full town council meetings would the cavetown folk give up their seats?”

Why should any one have to give up their seats? The council has a very big and very expensive, and very empty civic centre, why could that not be used to hold the meetings if more public want to attend. It was used for the Annual Town Meeting, and seeing as the council stung parishioners for a 72.6% precept hike to help pay for the council's gross incompetence. At least some use should be attained from it before it has to close, and hopefully the council along with it.

The councils website? Mrs Elizabeth Mitchell, of Cavetown Council, has had to ask the council to place on their website the information they are required to do and to keep it updated. That is held as a matter of record.

You say notthecivic:

“so mr samuels and the other folk that keep going on about openness and transparency please give others a chance to go and see these meetings and stop filling these threads with your silly comments”

The openness and transparency of K.T.C is such that the I.C.O has written to this open and transparent council to inform them they have to reply to my F.O.I request and complaint within twenty working days, as from 7 August 2013. I am not the only person who has made complaints to the I.C.O regarding K.T.C. So where is the transparency here? Such is the reputation of K.T.C in this field of information provision that the then legal advisor to B.M.D.C, Tony Kilner, stated in the Keighley News,Thursday 19th May 2011.Town councillors urged to work with officers not for them

“It is still a matter of great regret that this council, while urging transparency, has a code which controls the flow of news and information.
By agreeing to that part of the code councillors have slapped freedom of expression in the face. “

So there you have it notthecivic, a quote from a legal advisor. And we can also add here the comment by Cllr Brian Morris in which he doth protest much about the lack of information provided by the council. Keighley News, Friday 7th October 2011,Anger at deal for old police station.
“Its irrelevant Councillors have been refused financial information on the project.”

“Its irrelevant only the Finance Chairman and the projects officer are the only people who know the full costs and implications, when asked for this information the Chairman of Finance replied “you don’t need to know”.


And here is another comment from Cllr Brian Morris. Keighley News, Thursday 24th March 2011. Police warning for former councillor in emails dispute.

Mrs Bailey

“I see you neglected as expected to mention in the minutes that you and Cllr Mitchell were in favour of disregarding standing orders to have me removed from the committee. One day you will all be brought to task for the things you have done, this day can’t come soon enough for me and I suspect others in the council. You need to be aware of the saying what comes around goes around.”

I am sure I would not be alone in wishing Cllr Brian Morris would explain what he meant by this. Here again notthecivic we now have more evidence to suggest K.T.C is not only less than open with the public, but it also appears to be less than open with it's own councillors. However, I am certain if the external auditors have any problems with K.T.C accounts, the council will then be open to scrutiny. Tick Tock
[quote][p][bold]notthecivic[/bold] wrote: dear cavetowners you ask for openness and transparancy , well how open can the council be for you , EVERY COUNCIL MEETING IS OPEN TO THE PUBLIC SO THAT THE PUBLIC CAN SEE WHAT GOES ON IN THEM , ALL PAPERWORK IS PUBLISHED ONLINE , CAVE TOWN THEM SELVES HAVE PUBLISHED MANY TIMES THE TREASURERS ACCOUNTS ON THEIR SITE , THE PUBLIC GALLERY FOR FULL TOWN COUNCIL IS OPEN TO ALL BUT IS USUALLY THE SAME 5 OR 6 PEOPLE , if members of the public want to come and see the full town council meetings would the cavetown folk give up their seats? committee meetings are open to the public also , so mr samuels and the other folk that keep going on about openness and transparency please give others a chance to go and see these meetings and stop filling these threads with your silly comments , always spare seats in these meetings tells me that everything does not revolve around cavetown .[/p][/quote]How transparently accurate were the minutes from the council meeting held June 2013 in which Cllr Graham Mitchell referred to members of the public as swivel-eyes loons, yet this was never recorded in the minutes for that meeting as it should have been. However, the Keighley News reporter was there, along with Cavetown Council members, and this comment was recorded, which can be read here, Thursday 13th June 2013 ,Keighley Town Council member hits out at 'swivel-eyed loons'. This is the reason why K.T.C meetings need to be independently filmed and recorded. You say notthecivic. “if members of the public want to come and see the full town council meetings would the cavetown folk give up their seats?” Why should any one have to give up their seats? The council has a very big and very expensive, and very empty civic centre, why could that not be used to hold the meetings if more public want to attend. It was used for the Annual Town Meeting, and seeing as the council stung parishioners for a 72.6% precept hike to help pay for the council's gross incompetence. At least some use should be attained from it before it has to close, and hopefully the council along with it. The councils website? Mrs Elizabeth Mitchell, of Cavetown Council, has had to ask the council to place on their website the information they are required to do and to keep it updated. That is held as a matter of record. You say notthecivic: “so mr samuels and the other folk that keep going on about openness and transparency please give others a chance to go and see these meetings and stop filling these threads with your silly comments” The openness and transparency of K.T.C is such that the I.C.O has written to this open and transparent council to inform them they have to reply to my F.O.I request and complaint within twenty working days, as from 7 August 2013. I am not the only person who has made complaints to the I.C.O regarding K.T.C. So where is the transparency here? Such is the reputation of K.T.C in this field of information provision that the then legal advisor to B.M.D.C, Tony Kilner, stated in the Keighley News,Thursday 19th May 2011.Town councillors urged to work with officers not for them “It is still a matter of great regret that this council, while urging transparency, has a code which controls the flow of news and information. By agreeing to that part of the code councillors have slapped freedom of expression in the face. “ So there you have it notthecivic, a quote from a legal advisor. And we can also add here the comment by Cllr Brian Morris in which he doth protest much about the lack of information provided by the council. Keighley News, Friday 7th October 2011,Anger at deal for old police station. “Its irrelevant Councillors have been refused financial information on the project.” “Its irrelevant only the Finance Chairman and the projects officer are the only people who know the full costs and implications, when asked for this information the Chairman of Finance replied “you don’t need to know”. And here is another comment from Cllr Brian Morris. Keighley News, Thursday 24th March 2011. Police warning for former councillor in emails dispute. Mrs Bailey “I see you neglected as expected to mention in the minutes that you and Cllr Mitchell were in favour of disregarding standing orders to have me removed from the committee. One day you will all be brought to task for the things you have done, this day can’t come soon enough for me and I suspect others in the council. You need to be aware of the saying what comes around goes around.” I am sure I would not be alone in wishing Cllr Brian Morris would explain what he meant by this. Here again notthecivic we now have more evidence to suggest K.T.C is not only less than open with the public, but it also appears to be less than open with it's own councillors. However, I am certain if the external auditors have any problems with K.T.C accounts, the council will then be open to scrutiny. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 3

9:21am Mon 19 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Notthecivic....
Bearing in mind the comments above posted by Mr Forsyth,
I would like to respond still further to your question-
"dear cavetowners you ask for openness and transparancy , well how open can the council be for you".

You could post the minutes of the council meeting held on the 4th July 2013, you know, the one where the council made a misleading phone call to the police to eject 10 members of the public without reason, which to date are still not available on the council website.

You could expalin why councillors were asked to approve a set of accounts when they had not even had access to view these accounts.

You could explain why on several occasions regarding the civic centre, councillors issued false and misleading statements to the press regarding the financial situation and vehemently denied it was running at a loss even when this fact had been confirmed from your own records.

You could explain why on 26th July 2012 the Keighley News was threatened with legal action by the council if it ran a story on the Civic Centre, which lead to the following comments in the paper-
The Keighley News has been threatened with legal action if we publish a story about the finances at the new civic centre. It seems that because documents are marked confidential we have no right to see them.
Our answer to the threats can be seen on page one of today’s issue.
The fact is that no matter what the motivation, this is quite clearly in the public interest and, what’s more, flies in the face of the promises of openness and transparency made by Keighley Town Council.

You could explain why the public who wished to view the councils accounts at the financial year end were informed after 1 and 1/2 hours that their time would be limited to just 2 hours.

You could explain why, when I sent an email to every councillor at their official .gov.uk addresses supplied on the council website, that several of these emails returned a message not delivered notice.
And why of the 5 councillors who did respond, Mitchell, Morris, Wright, Westermen and Lockley, that most of the responses were abusive, racist and insulting including one which simply said "Dick Head" from Clown Morris ,and not one was a reply from the official email address.

I could go on, and on, and on Clowncillor noththecivic, but knowing that the above requests will be met with the usual stony silence I will simply ask you one simple question in regards to openness and transparency which even then I doubt you will answer truthfully...

As it is clear from several of your previous posts under the nom de plume "notthecivic", that you are in fact a serving councillor, why the need for secrecy? Why not sign your postings with your name and reveal your true identity?

While it is clear that in order to maintain the "Quality Council" status by KTC, that they are keen to promote the idea of Openness and transparency, unfortunately for secret sect which is running the joint, simply issuing the words on the website are simply not enough.
You must back up the words with actions, your current behaviour makes a mockery of the words and not only brings the council into disrepute, but is causing an international embarrassment for the ordinary, hardworking people of Keighley on a daily basis.

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
Notthecivic.... Bearing in mind the comments above posted by Mr Forsyth, I would like to respond still further to your question- "dear cavetowners you ask for openness and transparancy , well how open can the council be for you". You could post the minutes of the council meeting held on the 4th July 2013, you know, the one where the council made a misleading phone call to the police to eject 10 members of the public without reason, which to date are still not available on the council website. You could expalin why councillors were asked to approve a set of accounts when they had not even had access to view these accounts. You could explain why on several occasions regarding the civic centre, councillors issued false and misleading statements to the press regarding the financial situation and vehemently denied it was running at a loss even when this fact had been confirmed from your own records. You could explain why on 26th July 2012 the Keighley News was threatened with legal action by the council if it ran a story on the Civic Centre, which lead to the following comments in the paper- The Keighley News has been threatened with legal action if we publish a story about the finances at the new civic centre. It seems that because documents are marked confidential we have no right to see them. Our answer to the threats can be seen on page one of today’s issue. The fact is that no matter what the motivation, this is quite clearly in the public interest and, what’s more, flies in the face of the promises of openness and transparency made by Keighley Town Council. You could explain why the public who wished to view the councils accounts at the financial year end were informed after 1 and 1/2 hours that their time would be limited to just 2 hours. You could explain why, when I sent an email to every councillor at their official .gov.uk addresses supplied on the council website, that several of these emails returned a message not delivered notice. And why of the 5 councillors who did respond, Mitchell, Morris, Wright, Westermen and Lockley, that most of the responses were abusive, racist and insulting including one which simply said "Dick Head" from Clown Morris ,and not one was a reply from the official email address. I could go on, and on, and on Clowncillor noththecivic, but knowing that the above requests will be met with the usual stony silence I will simply ask you one simple question in regards to openness and transparency which even then I doubt you will answer truthfully... As it is clear from several of your previous posts under the nom de plume "notthecivic", that you are in fact a serving councillor, why the need for secrecy? Why not sign your postings with your name and reveal your true identity? While it is clear that in order to maintain the "Quality Council" status by KTC, that they are keen to promote the idea of Openness and transparency, unfortunately for secret sect which is running the joint, simply issuing the words on the website are simply not enough. You must back up the words with actions, your current behaviour makes a mockery of the words and not only brings the council into disrepute, but is causing an international embarrassment for the ordinary, hardworking people of Keighley on a daily basis. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 3

11:01am Mon 19 Aug 13

samuels david says...

It's Kingchaser is it at this moment then? (I like that name, it’s promotes for yourself an aura of a greatness which you never archived.)

I had said to you at a time many years ago, when, by dubious methods, of course in my view, you achieved what turned out to be your own illusion of respectability, it was at that moment you abandoned those who had thought of you as a friend and joined the coterie of what has most probably turned out to be a failed and un-trusted Town Council.

Oh little man of many aliases you were informed, that the group you were mixing with in Council could well bring you down and so it may well prove.

I’m afraid, like some others within your KTC heiriacry, you have exposed yourself to the public as imbecilic. So sad as you and your soul mates had a golden opportunity for re-creating Keighley into an area of quality, excellence, superiority and economic vitality, yet I believe you sold out for the egotistic baubles of dross, as did some others to be fair.

For the record when I owed and operated the General Off License shop in Oxenhope, the manageress at the time followed my instructions and only brought products of the highest quality. The bread was purchased from Southham’s of Haworth and retailed at their recommended price for over twenty six years.
As you aware at the time, I had other business interest during that twenty six years, yet only two manageress were ever employed by me, both totally honest and trustworthy, and would, I believe never have been guilty of the sharp practices you have conjured up in your illusionary and sick mind.

PS As you well know, I neither smoke or drink alcohol, ( I don't like the taste, nothing more!) and being with the same woman for fifty eight years, I do not require additional activities, other than the stimulation of my friends and that of my work.

David Samuels
It's Kingchaser is it at this moment then? (I like that name, it’s promotes for yourself an aura of a greatness which you never archived.) I had said to you at a time many years ago, when, by dubious methods, of course in my view, you achieved what turned out to be your own illusion of respectability, it was at that moment you abandoned those who had thought of you as a friend and joined the coterie of what has most probably turned out to be a failed and un-trusted Town Council. Oh little man of many aliases you were informed, that the group you were mixing with in Council could well bring you down and so it may well prove. I’m afraid, like some others within your KTC heiriacry, you have exposed yourself to the public as imbecilic. So sad as you and your soul mates had a golden opportunity for re-creating Keighley into an area of quality, excellence, superiority and economic vitality, yet I believe you sold out for the egotistic baubles of dross, as did some others to be fair. For the record when I owed and operated the General Off License shop in Oxenhope, the manageress at the time followed my instructions and only brought products of the highest quality. The bread was purchased from Southham’s of Haworth and retailed at their recommended price for over twenty six years. As you aware at the time, I had other business interest during that twenty six years, yet only two manageress were ever employed by me, both totally honest and trustworthy, and would, I believe never have been guilty of the sharp practices you have conjured up in your illusionary and sick mind. PS As you well know, I neither smoke or drink alcohol, ( I don't like the taste, nothing more!) and being with the same woman for fifty eight years, I do not require additional activities, other than the stimulation of my friends and that of my work. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 2

12:07pm Mon 19 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Where are you?
Where are you? samuels david
  • Score: 1

1:57pm Mon 19 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

The only reason Keighley councillors don't want to be filmed is because they have lots to hide. But the truth will out
The only reason Keighley councillors don't want to be filmed is because they have lots to hide. But the truth will out nannatyke
  • Score: 2

2:16pm Mon 19 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

Davy, Davy, Davy!

As I told you many moons ago on this forum. I chose the alias king chaser because I enjoy a game of chess. I doubt that you' d make a worthy opponent. At your first setback you start calling me names and at your second you'd storm off in a huff!

Actually we have never met. I only visited your shop once and it was very dear. So I didn't call again. So I don't know anything about your personal habits. Other than that I can glean from your posts on here. You enjoy sulking and name-calling and being the centre of attention. Much like a badly spoilt child. Of your business practices I know nothing other than the shop you had doesn't exist. Much like your political career.
Davy, Davy, Davy! As I told you many moons ago on this forum. I chose the alias king chaser because I enjoy a game of chess. I doubt that you' d make a worthy opponent. At your first setback you start calling me names and at your second you'd storm off in a huff! Actually we have never met. I only visited your shop once and it was very dear. So I didn't call again. So I don't know anything about your personal habits. Other than that I can glean from your posts on here. You enjoy sulking and name-calling and being the centre of attention. Much like a badly spoilt child. Of your business practices I know nothing other than the shop you had doesn't exist. Much like your political career. Kingchaser
  • Score: -4

3:26pm Mon 19 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Well we have been busy today! While I was enjoying dinner with a retired Australian gentleman, a German couple and a lovely lady on business here from Singapore as well as my own colleagues you have been having a bit of a ding dong. Shame I missed it!
Well we have been busy today! While I was enjoying dinner with a retired Australian gentleman, a German couple and a lovely lady on business here from Singapore as well as my own colleagues you have been having a bit of a ding dong. Shame I missed it! Little Green Man
  • Score: -4

3:28pm Mon 19 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

KC - stop trying to confuse Dave by trying to make him think you are me!! Naughty boy tut tut!!!
KC - stop trying to confuse Dave by trying to make him think you are me!! Naughty boy tut tut!!! Little Green Man
  • Score: -4

3:33pm Mon 19 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Kingchaser, or Oh little man of many aliases, as you well know, a political career was never an ambition of mine. I once stood as a liberal councillor, just to oblige a friend in need of a face.
Positions of falsehoods I obviously leave to those, like yourself of Keighley Town Council, who really have nothing better to do, with their lives, except hit, bully those you believe vulnerable whilst spending other people’s money on the Civic Centre idea of grandiose stupidity, just for the hell of it.

That you are a habitual liar of old, and a bad one at that, is palpably evident by your protestations of honesty, which fools no one of course. That your **** for positions, in what you see as ‘power’, and that truth you find odious and traumatic to comprehend has been noted even by those around you. That you need attention as a ‘leader’ a ‘mover and shaker’ has been a talking point in nearly all meetings I’ve had with people of quality and honesty. (But I’ve explained your problems, so don’t panic!)

That you can never alter your personality is a fact, and that’s why you are not trusted as a friend, except by yourself, and of course your many aliases and that sadly I would have to admit it, but I find your near presence an embarrassment, and so on Sunday, like many of your fellow Keighley Town Councillors, I shall take Communion and ask my God to forgive me for having such thoughts of you, even if they are true!

David Samuels
Kingchaser, or Oh little man of many aliases, as you well know, a political career was never an ambition of mine. I once stood as a liberal councillor, just to oblige a friend in need of a face. Positions of falsehoods I obviously leave to those, like yourself of Keighley Town Council, who really have nothing better to do, with their lives, except hit, bully those you believe vulnerable whilst spending other people’s money on the Civic Centre idea of grandiose stupidity, just for the hell of it. That you are a habitual liar of old, and a bad one at that, is palpably evident by your protestations of honesty, which fools no one of course. That your **** for positions, in what you see as ‘power’, and that truth you find odious and traumatic to comprehend has been noted even by those around you. That you need attention as a ‘leader’ a ‘mover and shaker’ has been a talking point in nearly all meetings I’ve had with people of quality and honesty. (But I’ve explained your problems, so don’t panic!) That you can never alter your personality is a fact, and that’s why you are not trusted as a friend, except by yourself, and of course your many aliases and that sadly I would have to admit it, but I find your near presence an embarrassment, and so on Sunday, like many of your fellow Keighley Town Councillors, I shall take Communion and ask my God to forgive me for having such thoughts of you, even if they are true! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 3

4:52pm Mon 19 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

So Messrs Mitchell, Forsyth et al.

Whether your case against KTC has merit or not, I have no care. I live in Haworth and am currently holidaying overseas.

But do you really think you are wise hitching your wagon to that of Mr Samuels? He adamantly lies when he says he knows who I am. He has no proof, for there is none, that I write on this site under any other pseudonym. He has no proof, for there is none, that I have any connection at all with KTC.

Instead he insults, calling into question others personalities, their honesty, even their mental healthetc.

Mr Samuels is a liability to your cause and you should disown him and distance yourselves from characters like that if you want to build a credible force to bring KTC into line.

I would be willing to meet privately with the editor of the KN to demonstrate who I am and deservedly destroy what little is left of Mr Samuels discredited reputation.

He is a nasty piece of work judging by what I've seen him write on here over many years.
So Messrs Mitchell, Forsyth et al. Whether your case against KTC has merit or not, I have no care. I live in Haworth and am currently holidaying overseas. But do you really think you are wise hitching your wagon to that of Mr Samuels? He adamantly lies when he says he knows who I am. He has no proof, for there is none, that I write on this site under any other pseudonym. He has no proof, for there is none, that I have any connection at all with KTC. Instead he insults, calling into question others personalities, their honesty, even their mental healthetc. Mr Samuels is a liability to your cause and you should disown him and distance yourselves from characters like that if you want to build a credible force to bring KTC into line. I would be willing to meet privately with the editor of the KN to demonstrate who I am and deservedly destroy what little is left of Mr Samuels discredited reputation. He is a nasty piece of work judging by what I've seen him write on here over many years. Kingchaser
  • Score: -4

7:37pm Mon 19 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Wow! Lonely man of many aliases your challenge to the world to reveal yourself as a Keighley Town Councillor or not is heroic.

That you, the ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ are willing, after another one your many holidays to prove you are an honest man of principles, and thus because you have principles you can’t be a Keighley Town Councillor, sounds good! The challenge is on!

However, your past comments must be professionally analysed, a simple task as your record over many years is available for inspection, at the main headquarters of the proprietors of the Keighley News.
As is the record of your email address, and I am aware you have many with which you sign on with differing aliases.

Lonely man of many aliases please inform the world wide breathless public when this particular holiday is to end, as the anticipation of confirming, that you, a non authority on Keighley Town Council has no connection whatsoever to this cornucopia of wasteful public spending.

As a pensioner I have to be financially frugal, I just wish KTC were as well, however I’m willing to donate £250 to any Keighley medical charity of your choice, if you are proved right, and I would of course publically apologise to you, a courtesy obviously you would return of course without question being an honourable person!

Obviously I would require a signed legally bound affidavit that you Lonely man of many aliases would reciprocate if you are proved right.

David Samuels

PS Lonely man of many aliases, bring your silliness to a close as if you deliberately dawdle with excuses I may not be around to crow, as I will if I’m right, and you will if you prove to be right! Right!

David Samuels
Wow! Lonely man of many aliases your challenge to the world to reveal yourself as a Keighley Town Councillor or not is heroic. That you, the ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ are willing, after another one your many holidays to prove you are an honest man of principles, and thus because you have principles you can’t be a Keighley Town Councillor, sounds good! The challenge is on! However, your past comments must be professionally analysed, a simple task as your record over many years is available for inspection, at the main headquarters of the proprietors of the Keighley News. As is the record of your email address, and I am aware you have many with which you sign on with differing aliases. Lonely man of many aliases please inform the world wide breathless public when this particular holiday is to end, as the anticipation of confirming, that you, a non authority on Keighley Town Council has no connection whatsoever to this cornucopia of wasteful public spending. As a pensioner I have to be financially frugal, I just wish KTC were as well, however I’m willing to donate £250 to any Keighley medical charity of your choice, if you are proved right, and I would of course publically apologise to you, a courtesy obviously you would return of course without question being an honourable person! Obviously I would require a signed legally bound affidavit that you Lonely man of many aliases would reciprocate if you are proved right. David Samuels PS Lonely man of many aliases, bring your silliness to a close as if you deliberately dawdle with excuses I may not be around to crow, as I will if I’m right, and you will if you prove to be right! Right! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

8:21pm Mon 19 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

i hope he picks a mental health charity for all those disgusting comments you use about this terrible condition
i hope he picks a mental health charity for all those disgusting comments you use about this terrible condition jimmy k
  • Score: -1

8:49pm Mon 19 Aug 13

samuels david says...

....and what Lonely man of many alias are the disgusting comments I used regarding mental health ptoblems, of which I suffer from?

David Samuels
....and what Lonely man of many alias are the disgusting comments I used regarding mental health ptoblems, of which I suffer from? David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

9:10pm Mon 19 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

if you remember david you are the only person who has been found to use aliases on this site,you really shouldn't judge everybody by your own standards,wizard52,c
urry and chips twice,blackpen......
....................
...
if you remember david you are the only person who has been found to use aliases on this site,you really shouldn't judge everybody by your own standards,wizard52,c urry and chips twice,blackpen...... .................... ... jimmy k
  • Score: 0

11:19pm Mon 19 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

And still he persists! Other people trying to bring about change at KTC please take note. DS cannot be reasoned with.

But the opportunity to raise 250 quid for my favourite charity is too good to resist.

Davy. I will be back in Keighley on Friday 6th June. I will meet with yourself and the EDitor of the KN at any pub in Keighley at any time. I will bring proof of identity. This will confirm that I have never had any dealings whatsoever with any member of KTC at any time. You bring some humble pie and a cheque made out to Manorlands. Please ask the editor to confirm the venue to my private email address as registered on this website.
And still he persists! Other people trying to bring about change at KTC please take note. DS cannot be reasoned with. But the opportunity to raise 250 quid for my favourite charity is too good to resist. Davy. I will be back in Keighley on Friday 6th June. I will meet with yourself and the EDitor of the KN at any pub in Keighley at any time. I will bring proof of identity. This will confirm that I have never had any dealings whatsoever with any member of KTC at any time. You bring some humble pie and a cheque made out to Manorlands. Please ask the editor to confirm the venue to my private email address as registered on this website. Kingchaser
  • Score: -2

11:19pm Mon 19 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

And still he persists! Other people trying to bring about change at KTC please take note. DS cannot be reasoned with.

But the opportunity to raise 250 quid for my favourite charity is too good to resist.

Davy. I will be back in Keighley on Friday 6th June. I will meet with yourself and the EDitor of the KN at any pub in Keighley at any time. I will bring proof of identity. This will confirm that I have never had any dealings whatsoever with any member of KTC at any time. You bring some humble pie and a cheque made out to Manorlands. Please ask the editor to confirm the venue to my private email address as registered on this website.
And still he persists! Other people trying to bring about change at KTC please take note. DS cannot be reasoned with. But the opportunity to raise 250 quid for my favourite charity is too good to resist. Davy. I will be back in Keighley on Friday 6th June. I will meet with yourself and the EDitor of the KN at any pub in Keighley at any time. I will bring proof of identity. This will confirm that I have never had any dealings whatsoever with any member of KTC at any time. You bring some humble pie and a cheque made out to Manorlands. Please ask the editor to confirm the venue to my private email address as registered on this website. Kingchaser
  • Score: -3

11:39pm Mon 19 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Lonely man of many alias, 6th June? What year? KTC with luck may have long gone by next year!


David Samuels
Lonely man of many alias, 6th June? What year? KTC with luck may have long gone by next year! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: -1

12:20am Tue 20 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

KC is just messing with Dave, neither does he have anything to do with me, really!
KC is just messing with Dave, neither does he have anything to do with me, really! Little Green Man
  • Score: -1

8:57am Tue 20 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Well Lonely man of many alias, you’ve failed to deliver, as you have done with everything else in your life.
Cavetown Council, a band of honest people, a concept of which is way beyond your limited understanding have saved the credibility of Keighley, and I’m proud to have had the golden opportunity of holding on the hem of their achievements when exposing the perceived obfuscation of financial issues and procedures within KTC.
It must be said however that part credit must go to you oh Lonely man of many alias, as without your own participation on these pages, the public, locally and worldwide would most certainly not have shown the interest your insane rants and gobble-de-gook sound bites generated, and I believe even Cavetown Council might never have taken a look at my claims and accusations.

David Samuels

PS
When your KTC associates realise what you’ve done to their fulcrum of imaginary power I rather doubt that you’ll be offered anymore ‘Training Courses’, but I could be wrong as perverseness is what has kept KTC breathing, I believe!
Well Lonely man of many alias, you’ve failed to deliver, as you have done with everything else in your life. Cavetown Council, a band of honest people, a concept of which is way beyond your limited understanding have saved the credibility of Keighley, and I’m proud to have had the golden opportunity of holding on the hem of their achievements when exposing the perceived obfuscation of financial issues and procedures within KTC. It must be said however that part credit must go to you oh Lonely man of many alias, as without your own participation on these pages, the public, locally and worldwide would most certainly not have shown the interest your insane rants and gobble-de-gook sound bites generated, and I believe even Cavetown Council might never have taken a look at my claims and accusations. David Samuels PS When your KTC associates realise what you’ve done to their fulcrum of imaginary power I rather doubt that you’ll be offered anymore ‘Training Courses’, but I could be wrong as perverseness is what has kept KTC breathing, I believe! samuels david
  • Score: 0

9:10am Tue 20 Aug 13

samuels david says...

mm
mm samuels david
  • Score: -1

9:45am Tue 20 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

In the name of honesty and transparency, I wonder if any mention of this current scandal, how members of Keighley Town Council resorted to using blackmail to get their own way to interfere with the public's right to gain signatures on a legal petition will get any mention at the next Full Council Meeting.
It will be interesting to note if their involvement in the Gala is mentioned and if those mentioning it explain why they resorted to such underhand tactics.
It will also be of interest to note if any of the other councillors ask questions or officially note their own feelings of the use of blackmail in the name of the council.

Really looking forward to this next meeting, not only will I be able to view the footage of the council voting on the right to record meetings... ( an absurdity in itself, but one which should make interesting viewing).
But I will also be able to see the "Honest and Transparent" discussion which takes place regarding how the Council reflects on it's involvement in the Gala, bearing in mind that this story is already in existence, should the event note be noted, then this will indeed, give great credence to those who claim "Honesty and Transparency" are severely lacking at the clowncil.
The beauty of the footage will be that I will see the events very soon after they occur, and not, as the present situation, wait several months to access the heavily edited minutes via the KTC website.

The next Full Council Meeting will indeed go a long way to establish what grounds KTC has to claim it is committed to Openness and Transparency.

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
In the name of honesty and transparency, I wonder if any mention of this current scandal, how members of Keighley Town Council resorted to using blackmail to get their own way to interfere with the public's right to gain signatures on a legal petition will get any mention at the next Full Council Meeting. It will be interesting to note if their involvement in the Gala is mentioned and if those mentioning it explain why they resorted to such underhand tactics. It will also be of interest to note if any of the other councillors ask questions or officially note their own feelings of the use of blackmail in the name of the council. Really looking forward to this next meeting, not only will I be able to view the footage of the council voting on the right to record meetings... ( an absurdity in itself, but one which should make interesting viewing). But I will also be able to see the "Honest and Transparent" discussion which takes place regarding how the Council reflects on it's involvement in the Gala, bearing in mind that this story is already in existence, should the event note be noted, then this will indeed, give great credence to those who claim "Honesty and Transparency" are severely lacking at the clowncil. The beauty of the footage will be that I will see the events very soon after they occur, and not, as the present situation, wait several months to access the heavily edited minutes via the KTC website. The next Full Council Meeting will indeed go a long way to establish what grounds KTC has to claim it is committed to Openness and Transparency. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

10:13am Tue 20 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

samuels david wrote:
Lonely man of many alias, 6th June? What year? KTC with luck may have long gone by next year!


David Samuels
And then what...

"Meet the new boss... same as the old boss..."
The Who: Won't Get Fooled Again
[quote][p][bold]samuels david[/bold] wrote: Lonely man of many alias, 6th June? What year? KTC with luck may have long gone by next year! David Samuels[/p][/quote]And then what... "Meet the new boss... same as the old boss..." The Who: Won't Get Fooled Again Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 0

10:20am Tue 20 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

My genuine apologies! I meant September and not June . Maybe a little too much San Miguel with my Paella last night!

The offer still stands. Bring plenty of humble pie David. Your persistence in continuing to assert things you don't have any proof of is quite desperate and you deserve to be knocked off your perch. But the main reason I'm prepared to do this is to get the 250 quid for Manorlands.

I await your reply and an email from the editor of the kn as independent witness.
My genuine apologies! I meant September and not June . Maybe a little too much San Miguel with my Paella last night! The offer still stands. Bring plenty of humble pie David. Your persistence in continuing to assert things you don't have any proof of is quite desperate and you deserve to be knocked off your perch. But the main reason I'm prepared to do this is to get the 250 quid for Manorlands. I await your reply and an email from the editor of the kn as independent witness. Kingchaser
  • Score: -1

2:51pm Tue 20 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Simon says... but nobody is listening. Sorry mate! Dave old friend, if you think I am the same person as KingChaser then you are mistaken (again) keep trying old pal - one day you might get lucky and guess right - but I doubt it, our paths to my knowledge only ever crossed on these pages except for an occasional stroll out down by The Druids...
Simon says... but nobody is listening. Sorry mate! Dave old friend, if you think I am the same person as KingChaser then you are mistaken (again) keep trying old pal - one day you might get lucky and guess right - but I doubt it, our paths to my knowledge only ever crossed on these pages except for an occasional stroll out down by The Druids... Little Green Man
  • Score: -2

5:24pm Tue 20 Aug 13

samuels david says...

At a meeting this morning information of a sensitive nature was given to me regarding ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ and members of his family.

The information I received made it obvious he has, as we all do, problems not of choice.

This information was given to me on the understanding I would not say more, now or forever as it is of no concern of others.

Without any persuading of any sort, from anybody, I wish to humbly apologize and admit to the public that allowing this situation between ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ and myself to continue was not in the best interest of those concerned.

I also, genuinely, and humbly apologize to ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ for this state of affairs that I had encouraged to continue.

This is the end of this affair.

David Samuels
At a meeting this morning information of a sensitive nature was given to me regarding ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ and members of his family. The information I received made it obvious he has, as we all do, problems not of choice. This information was given to me on the understanding I would not say more, now or forever as it is of no concern of others. Without any persuading of any sort, from anybody, I wish to humbly apologize and admit to the public that allowing this situation between ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ and myself to continue was not in the best interest of those concerned. I also, genuinely, and humbly apologize to ‘Lonely man of many aliases’ for this state of affairs that I had encouraged to continue. This is the end of this affair. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 0

7:51pm Tue 20 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

david as you don't have a clue who little green man is,nor do i,then how can this meeting have taken place,your posts are getting more and more bizarre and as has been previously stated does your cause no good at all.as you keep telling us that you a good christian if you are then i'm thankful i'm atheist.
david as you don't have a clue who little green man is,nor do i,then how can this meeting have taken place,your posts are getting more and more bizarre and as has been previously stated does your cause no good at all.as you keep telling us that you a good christian if you are then i'm thankful i'm atheist. jimmy k
  • Score: 0

9:05pm Tue 20 Aug 13

samuels david says...

jimmy k, Thank you for the courtesy of using my correct first name.

Regarding your religious beliefs, if that’s’ what you wish to believe, then believe!
That I and others in the world have differing religious beliefs and moral views is our right, which is, I suggest, just as valid as your own.

David Samuels
jimmy k, Thank you for the courtesy of using my correct first name. Regarding your religious beliefs, if that’s’ what you wish to believe, then believe! That I and others in the world have differing religious beliefs and moral views is our right, which is, I suggest, just as valid as your own. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: -1

9:26pm Tue 20 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

So David,

Does that mean you are bottling out of meeting me and finding out that you don't know me at all? Your bluff has been called! Be ashamed and pretend no more that you know me. The world now realises you talk ****.

A shame that Manorlands won't be receiving your 250 quid. I will donate same on your behalf.
So David, Does that mean you are bottling out of meeting me and finding out that you don't know me at all? Your bluff has been called! Be ashamed and pretend no more that you know me. The world now realises you talk ****. A shame that Manorlands won't be receiving your 250 quid. I will donate same on your behalf. Kingchaser
  • Score: 1

9:31pm Tue 20 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

Messrs Mitchell, Forsyth et al,

You complain so much about being met with stony silence. Maybe you could show us how open and transparent you are? Perhaps show the world how you, yourselves would treat a freedom of information request?

Yes or no.... Is David Samuels really someone you wish to be associated with?

I await your reply. Or will you bottle it like David did when I called his bluff?
Messrs Mitchell, Forsyth et al, You complain so much about being met with stony silence. Maybe you could show us how open and transparent you are? Perhaps show the world how you, yourselves would treat a freedom of information request? Yes or no.... Is David Samuels really someone you wish to be associated with? I await your reply. Or will you bottle it like David did when I called his bluff? Kingchaser
  • Score: 0

10:30pm Tue 20 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

I wonder what I have that is so bad it can't be talked about forever?
I wonder what I have that is so bad it can't be talked about forever? Little Green Man
  • Score: -1

4:28am Wed 21 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

Judging by his last sentence, you and DS were having an affair, LGM!
Judging by his last sentence, you and DS were having an affair, LGM! Kingchaser
  • Score: -1

7:00am Wed 21 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Dear Mr Samuels,
Thankyou for your ceaseless efforts in bringing to the attention of the public the serious wrongdoings at KTC.
When the council is eventually held to account for its actions the people of Keighley will owe you one very big thankyou.
While we are waiting for the next sorry episode to be revealed, I wonder if you have a few moments to read the following extracts, taken from Forbes Magazine from the 18/ 4/ 2013 and titled
Enders Game, Orson Scott Card, And People Who Hide Behind Pen Names.

"How credible are comments coming from people who don’t use their real name?

Does a pen name, nom de plume, or pseudonym, still have value in a world of social media where it’s all about trust and being real?

Do people trust others if they don’t use their real name?

In my consulting and speaking on how to set up LinkedIn, Twitter, etc. I recommend that a person use their real name.

@KenKrogue is my twitter name, and my real name.

Now, with a name like Krogue you don’t have to worry about duplicates like John Smith would struggle with. If I were John Smith and that name was already taken. Rather than using JohnSmith1278, I would add a personal brand strategy to my name. If I sell for a living, I would use JohnSmithSells. Or if I’m a recruiter, I’d put JohnSmithHires.

Get the idea?

So what about when you set up your account name on a digital media news site like Forbes.com? Should you use your real name?

Easy answer…

Do you want your comment to carry more weight from the author and readers?

I found I was immediately turned off by people who attacked me rather than my idea; and they usually hid behind a pen name. It seemed to create artificial boldness, yet immediately degraded common decency and civility. They seemed to come out dripping with sarcasm, yet having nothing of substance to say.

I call them “drive by critics…”

On the other hand, there were real people who used their real names, and even though they immediately started out on the offensive (and were a bit offensive in their manners) they immediately toned down and the conversation was constructive, civil, and enjoyable. If I met them today I would shake their hands, maybe a hug or two.

I immediately found myself willing to invest time to respond if it was a real person I was responding to.

If the persons name wasn’t real, I didn’t feel the comment was real. I didn’t feel it was worth my time.

Was it? They weren’t real, their comments weren’t as real either.

I just went out to The Daily Herald, my local online newspaper in Provo, Utah, and I noticed almost everyone uses pen names. In fact, when I was quickly registering it warned me to be careful about what login identity I chose because that is what I would be known by. The Daily Herald isn’t quite Forbes. The comments were noticeably different… lacking. People just making random, often less than civil, remarks.

What is the impact of having to stand behind who you are versus hiding behind a pen name?

This would be some very interesting research. Can you get lost in an identity that doesn’t exist, an Avatar that you made up that isn’t real? Does society lose something as well?

Then there is the subject of trolls… people who hide behind fake identities solely for the purpose of calling your article into question, or worse yet, attacking you personally. I found a few of those in the Death of SEO adventure. A few also seemed to surface in a special article I dedicated to the victims of September 11th entitled, “I’m not Democrat or Republican: I Vote Entrepreneur.”

Trolls… What a perfect name…

Why have a pen name in the first place other than to hide your identity?

Could it be you have other motives in mind? To sway public opinion with artificial comments, views, likes, etc.?

Are there any good upstanding reasons not to reveal who you are? We have predictive analytics that can usually find out who you are. Google has it figured out you can be sure.

I want to talk to real people. And read the works of real people. Social media is so powerful because it is about being real.

I don’t give as much credibility to people who hide behind pen names. Their point of view is lessened dramatically. Their credibility nil…

Their feedback isn’t real because they aren’t real.

Is the name you use your real name? Maybe you should reconsider.

In a world of search and social media like Google and LinkedIn that displays a persons background and credentials openly, I have to ask this obvious question… if I can find out who you are anyway, why not just be real?

Ken Krogue is my real name."

I hope you found the above information interesting, for example when I have received email replies from Cllr Tony Wright, his responses which were sent by me to his official .gov.uk address were responded to by Cllr Tony Wright from Tony at askmetro.com.
Why he wouldn't use his official email address may have something to do with the abusive and racist content of his words, however, having used his personal details to reply, he revealed much more about himself than perhaps he may of wished.
A simple Google search of Tony ask metro can turn up some very unusual information regarding an ex mayor of Keighley.
You may find this type of research of interest yourself.

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
Dear Mr Samuels, Thankyou for your ceaseless efforts in bringing to the attention of the public the serious wrongdoings at KTC. When the council is eventually held to account for its actions the people of Keighley will owe you one very big thankyou. While we are waiting for the next sorry episode to be revealed, I wonder if you have a few moments to read the following extracts, taken from Forbes Magazine from the 18/ 4/ 2013 and titled Enders Game, Orson Scott Card, And People Who Hide Behind Pen Names. "How credible are comments coming from people who don’t use their real name? Does a pen name, nom de plume, or pseudonym, still have value in a world of social media where it’s all about trust and being real? Do people trust others if they don’t use their real name? In my consulting and speaking on how to set up LinkedIn, Twitter, etc. I recommend that a person use their real name. @KenKrogue is my twitter name, and my real name. Now, with a name like Krogue you don’t have to worry about duplicates like John Smith would struggle with. If I were John Smith and that name was already taken. Rather than using JohnSmith1278, I would add a personal brand strategy to my name. If I sell for a living, I would use JohnSmithSells. Or if I’m a recruiter, I’d put JohnSmithHires. Get the idea? So what about when you set up your account name on a digital media news site like Forbes.com? Should you use your real name? Easy answer… Do you want your comment to carry more weight from the author and readers? I found I was immediately turned off by people who attacked me rather than my idea; and they usually hid behind a pen name. It seemed to create artificial boldness, yet immediately degraded common decency and civility. They seemed to come out dripping with sarcasm, yet having nothing of substance to say. I call them “drive by critics…” On the other hand, there were real people who used their real names, and even though they immediately started out on the offensive (and were a bit offensive in their manners) they immediately toned down and the conversation was constructive, civil, and enjoyable. If I met them today I would shake their hands, maybe a hug or two. I immediately found myself willing to invest time to respond if it was a real person I was responding to. If the persons name wasn’t real, I didn’t feel the comment was real. I didn’t feel it was worth my time. Was it? They weren’t real, their comments weren’t as real either. I just went out to The Daily Herald, my local online newspaper in Provo, Utah, and I noticed almost everyone uses pen names. In fact, when I was quickly registering it warned me to be careful about what login identity I chose because that is what I would be known by. The Daily Herald isn’t quite Forbes. The comments were noticeably different… lacking. People just making random, often less than civil, remarks. What is the impact of having to stand behind who you are versus hiding behind a pen name? This would be some very interesting research. Can you get lost in an identity that doesn’t exist, an Avatar that you made up that isn’t real? Does society lose something as well? Then there is the subject of trolls… people who hide behind fake identities solely for the purpose of calling your article into question, or worse yet, attacking you personally. I found a few of those in the Death of SEO adventure. A few also seemed to surface in a special article I dedicated to the victims of September 11th entitled, “I’m not Democrat or Republican: I Vote Entrepreneur.” Trolls… What a perfect name… Why have a pen name in the first place other than to hide your identity? Could it be you have other motives in mind? To sway public opinion with artificial comments, views, likes, etc.? Are there any good upstanding reasons not to reveal who you are? We have predictive analytics that can usually find out who you are. Google has it figured out you can be sure. I want to talk to real people. And read the works of real people. Social media is so powerful because it is about being real. I don’t give as much credibility to people who hide behind pen names. Their point of view is lessened dramatically. Their credibility nil… Their feedback isn’t real because they aren’t real. Is the name you use your real name? Maybe you should reconsider. In a world of search and social media like Google and LinkedIn that displays a persons background and credentials openly, I have to ask this obvious question… if I can find out who you are anyway, why not just be real? Ken Krogue is my real name." I hope you found the above information interesting, for example when I have received email replies from Cllr Tony Wright, his responses which were sent by me to his official .gov.uk address were responded to by Cllr Tony Wright from Tony at askmetro.com. Why he wouldn't use his official email address may have something to do with the abusive and racist content of his words, however, having used his personal details to reply, he revealed much more about himself than perhaps he may of wished. A simple Google search of Tony ask metro can turn up some very unusual information regarding an ex mayor of Keighley. You may find this type of research of interest yourself. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 1

9:43am Wed 21 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

Simon - I have done a search and was shocked at the revelations. Critics of filming council meetings must have a good deal hide
Simon - I have done a search and was shocked at the revelations. Critics of filming council meetings must have a good deal hide nannatyke
  • Score: 2

10:28am Wed 21 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Always a 708 Skinhead you state you have received private email replies from Cllr Tony Wright, via his official .gov.uk address.
I would be appalled, as would many Keighley precept payers, if it can be verified that any Councillor was misusing official .gov.uk addresses, as misusing public amenities in any way for personal use is a criminal matter, and would also surely be frowned upon by the Keighley Town Clerk, wouldn’t it.
Cllr Mitchell and all the other members of Council should it be proved true publically reprimand Cllr Wright for abusing the Keighley precept payers, no 708 Skinhead, such is the high reputation of all Keighley Town Councillors, exemplary, in one case I believe, that I do believe a possible mistake may have been made!
However as I had noticed in your posting, you make comment that racist content were also included. I and many others worldwide, will make that simple Google search of ‘Tony ask metro’ you mention, and look at what you describe as ‘very unusual information regarding an ex mayor of Keighley.
From a purely non ‘voyeur’ perspective (Even as a baby, I was always to old!) I will of course do the full research and post the results. Good or bad!

David Samuels

PS nannatyke, KTC have issues to hide? The Council with the highest integrity and transparency, rating in England, surely not! Whatever makes you think that?
Always a 708 Skinhead you state you have received private email replies from Cllr Tony Wright, via his official .gov.uk address. I would be appalled, as would many Keighley precept payers, if it can be verified that any Councillor was misusing official .gov.uk addresses, as misusing public amenities in any way for personal use is a criminal matter, and would also surely be frowned upon by the Keighley Town Clerk, wouldn’t it. Cllr Mitchell and all the other members of Council should it be proved true publically reprimand Cllr Wright for abusing the Keighley precept payers, no 708 Skinhead, such is the high reputation of all Keighley Town Councillors, exemplary, in one case I believe, that I do believe a possible mistake may have been made! However as I had noticed in your posting, you make comment that racist content were also included. I and many others worldwide, will make that simple Google search of ‘Tony ask metro’ you mention, and look at what you describe as ‘very unusual information regarding an ex mayor of Keighley. From a purely non ‘voyeur’ perspective (Even as a baby, I was always to old!) I will of course do the full research and post the results. Good or bad! David Samuels PS nannatyke, KTC have issues to hide? The Council with the highest integrity and transparency, rating in England, surely not! Whatever makes you think that? samuels david
  • Score: 0

11:43am Wed 21 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

So. Still waiting for a reply from DS with regard to demonstrating my identity and that he doesn't know me from Adam.

Also still waiting for a yes or no answer from MEssrs MItchell and FOrsyth et al. They'd rather hide behind long copy/pasted articles than answer a simple question. Would the future of KEighley be safe in any of their hands?

Doesn't look like it!

Drive-by critics it would seem!
So. Still waiting for a reply from DS with regard to demonstrating my identity and that he doesn't know me from Adam. Also still waiting for a yes or no answer from MEssrs MItchell and FOrsyth et al. They'd rather hide behind long copy/pasted articles than answer a simple question. Would the future of KEighley be safe in any of their hands? Doesn't look like it! Drive-by critics it would seem! Kingchaser
  • Score: -2

6:17pm Wed 21 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

isn't it odd that threads about unrelated issues get hijacked into discussions about the KTC... but a thread dedicated to discussion of the KTC ends up being about who is really who... and who's met who... who's lying, and who is playing with a full deck. I would imagine any council members reading this thread are ever so thankful that it's no longer about their disgraceful behaviour and is now about the identities of the people who regularly post here...
isn't it odd that threads about unrelated issues get hijacked into discussions about the KTC... but a thread dedicated to discussion of the KTC ends up being about who is really who... and who's met who... who's lying, and who is playing with a full deck. I would imagine any council members reading this thread are ever so thankful that it's no longer about their disgraceful behaviour and is now about the identities of the people who regularly post here... Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 1

6:42pm Wed 21 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

Lol @ 8, hey there 8 ball are you me? Or am I you?
Lol @ 8, hey there 8 ball are you me? Or am I you? Little Green Man
  • Score: -2

7:38pm Wed 21 Aug 13

jimmy k says...

skinhead you should really refrain from calling people trolls just because they he different point of view then you.unless of course you believe they are mythical creatures that live under bridges.
skinhead you should really refrain from calling people trolls just because they he different point of view then you.unless of course you believe they are mythical creatures that live under bridges. jimmy k
  • Score: -2

11:18pm Wed 21 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

So now, not only is the ktc website not kept upto date, but existing minutes and agendas have been removed. Hardly open and transparent is it ktc.
So now, not only is the ktc website not kept upto date, but existing minutes and agendas have been removed. Hardly open and transparent is it ktc. Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 1

11:50pm Wed 21 Aug 13

Kingchaser says...

Well. I know who I am!

And I know what I do!

Best regards,

Little Green Jimmy Pie-Chaser, KTC web-master
Well. I know who I am! And I know what I do! Best regards, Little Green Jimmy Pie-Chaser, KTC web-master Kingchaser
  • Score: -2

7:06am Thu 22 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

The petition in this article is about Keighley Town Council being Open and Honest and Transparent. Filming them at their meetings is the way to ensure they are. The minutes are heavily edited and now the removal from their website of minutes and agendas of a committee that is the midst of controversy is certainly not transparent. A recording of that committee's meetings, in the public domain, would make such sneaky gestures by the council futile. Wake up Keighley councillors, because the electorate has woken up to your underhand tactics and will no longer put up with them.
The petition in this article is about Keighley Town Council being Open and Honest and Transparent. Filming them at their meetings is the way to ensure they are. The minutes are heavily edited and now the removal from their website of minutes and agendas of a committee that is the midst of controversy is certainly not transparent. A recording of that committee's meetings, in the public domain, would make such sneaky gestures by the council futile. Wake up Keighley councillors, because the electorate has woken up to your underhand tactics and will no longer put up with them. nannatyke
  • Score: 3

8:37am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Please let me introduce myself, I am the Town Clowncil Magician,
Some of you may know of me, from my Responsible Position.
Today I am performing, an act that presents a feat of mystery,
Ladies, Gents and Kiddiewinks, "The Disappearing Staff & Management Committee!"

Now you see them, now you don't, I can conjure them at pleasure,
Will I put the minutes on the website? Or will they vanish for forever?
Were they even real to start with? I hope nobody will ever know,
If I'm found out to be a fraudster, then that could end my show!

They must be real, I must insist! We have done our best work in their name.
If it's proven that they were illegal, how could I bear the shame?
"How could this schoolyard error happen?" Will be what everybody wonders,
She's not the Responsible Officer, She is the Officer of Blunders!

I must get my loyal subjects, to tell the public a sneaky, misleading statement,
And I will hide evidence about this, in a damp and leaky basement.
This way we can all simply state, "the committee's legal, it's a fact!"
And refuse to give any details, asked under the Freedom of Information Act.
Please let me introduce myself, I am the Town Clowncil Magician, Some of you may know of me, from my Responsible Position. Today I am performing, an act that presents a feat of mystery, Ladies, Gents and Kiddiewinks, "The Disappearing Staff & Management Committee!" Now you see them, now you don't, I can conjure them at pleasure, Will I put the minutes on the website? Or will they vanish for forever? Were they even real to start with? I hope nobody will ever know, If I'm found out to be a fraudster, then that could end my show! They must be real, I must insist! We have done our best work in their name. If it's proven that they were illegal, how could I bear the shame? "How could this schoolyard error happen?" Will be what everybody wonders, She's not the Responsible Officer, She is the Officer of Blunders! I must get my loyal subjects, to tell the public a sneaky, misleading statement, And I will hide evidence about this, in a damp and leaky basement. This way we can all simply state, "the committee's legal, it's a fact!" And refuse to give any details, asked under the Freedom of Information Act. Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 3

9:35am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

You can’t win an argument with a troll
There are trolls online. Not the fairytale kind that sits under bridges: we’re talking about the mean, nasty individuals who use online anonymity to be cruel, spread their own brand of hate, destroy reputations and products, and generally try to upset and crush as many people and companies as they possibly can.

Trolls agitate to start fights between friends or strangers; they torment those struggling with illnesses or with the loss of a loved one, people unsure of their identity or their looks, or any other weakness a troll can find. They disrupt forums with off-topic comments, brag nonstop about themselves, ridicule the thoughts of others or insert controversial comments to disrupt conversations.

Trolls spread lies, deceive and cause damage, and they enjoy every minute they can make someone else miserable. They may be obnoxious teens, but more often than not they’re seemingly “normal” adults who use internet anonymity to shed their veneer of decency and show their ugly selves. Trolls are basically cyberbullies on steroids – cowards afraid to show their face but nastier and more dedicated than garden-variety bullies. They are often fairly tech savvy, willing to dig up a comment or information from your past to distort, thereby “justifying” their actions.

If you’ve spent any time online, you’ve probably run across trolls even if you didn’t know the term. You may have tried to reason with them, be nice to them or virtually shout back at them. Don’t bother. You’re more likely to win an argument with a tree than you are with a troll.
You can’t win an argument with a troll There are trolls online. Not the fairytale kind that sits under bridges: we’re talking about the mean, nasty individuals who use online anonymity to be cruel, spread their own brand of hate, destroy reputations and products, and generally try to upset and crush as many people and companies as they possibly can. Trolls agitate to start fights between friends or strangers; they torment those struggling with illnesses or with the loss of a loved one, people unsure of their identity or their looks, or any other weakness a troll can find. They disrupt forums with off-topic comments, brag nonstop about themselves, ridicule the thoughts of others or insert controversial comments to disrupt conversations. Trolls spread lies, deceive and cause damage, and they enjoy every minute they can make someone else miserable. They may be obnoxious teens, but more often than not they’re seemingly “normal” adults who use internet anonymity to shed their veneer of decency and show their ugly selves. Trolls are basically cyberbullies on steroids – cowards afraid to show their face but nastier and more dedicated than garden-variety bullies. They are often fairly tech savvy, willing to dig up a comment or information from your past to distort, thereby “justifying” their actions. If you’ve spent any time online, you’ve probably run across trolls even if you didn’t know the term. You may have tried to reason with them, be nice to them or virtually shout back at them. Don’t bother. You’re more likely to win an argument with a tree than you are with a troll. Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 3

9:35am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

You can’t win an argument with a troll
There are trolls online. Not the fairytale kind that sits under bridges: we’re talking about the mean, nasty individuals who use online anonymity to be cruel, spread their own brand of hate, destroy reputations and products, and generally try to upset and crush as many people and companies as they possibly can.

Trolls agitate to start fights between friends or strangers; they torment those struggling with illnesses or with the loss of a loved one, people unsure of their identity or their looks, or any other weakness a troll can find. They disrupt forums with off-topic comments, brag nonstop about themselves, ridicule the thoughts of others or insert controversial comments to disrupt conversations.

Trolls spread lies, deceive and cause damage, and they enjoy every minute they can make someone else miserable. They may be obnoxious teens, but more often than not they’re seemingly “normal” adults who use internet anonymity to shed their veneer of decency and show their ugly selves. Trolls are basically cyberbullies on steroids – cowards afraid to show their face but nastier and more dedicated than garden-variety bullies. They are often fairly tech savvy, willing to dig up a comment or information from your past to distort, thereby “justifying” their actions.

If you’ve spent any time online, you’ve probably run across trolls even if you didn’t know the term. You may have tried to reason with them, be nice to them or virtually shout back at them. Don’t bother. You’re more likely to win an argument with a tree than you are with a troll.
You can’t win an argument with a troll There are trolls online. Not the fairytale kind that sits under bridges: we’re talking about the mean, nasty individuals who use online anonymity to be cruel, spread their own brand of hate, destroy reputations and products, and generally try to upset and crush as many people and companies as they possibly can. Trolls agitate to start fights between friends or strangers; they torment those struggling with illnesses or with the loss of a loved one, people unsure of their identity or their looks, or any other weakness a troll can find. They disrupt forums with off-topic comments, brag nonstop about themselves, ridicule the thoughts of others or insert controversial comments to disrupt conversations. Trolls spread lies, deceive and cause damage, and they enjoy every minute they can make someone else miserable. They may be obnoxious teens, but more often than not they’re seemingly “normal” adults who use internet anonymity to shed their veneer of decency and show their ugly selves. Trolls are basically cyberbullies on steroids – cowards afraid to show their face but nastier and more dedicated than garden-variety bullies. They are often fairly tech savvy, willing to dig up a comment or information from your past to distort, thereby “justifying” their actions. If you’ve spent any time online, you’ve probably run across trolls even if you didn’t know the term. You may have tried to reason with them, be nice to them or virtually shout back at them. Don’t bother. You’re more likely to win an argument with a tree than you are with a troll. Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 1

10:24am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Oh Dear KTC!
Embarrassed once again on a national level.
From a press release bu Eric Pickles on Gov.UK today-
In June, Mr Pickles published clear guidance to councils asking them to open up to overt filming and social media. This builds on the rights to attend council meetings that were introduced by Margaret Thatcher in 1960, following a Private Members’ Bill in her maiden speech to Parliament.

However, since June, some councils are still continuing to oppose an independent press:

Wirral Council has said filming a planning committee would compromise “health and safety”
Tower Hamlets Council barred a 71 year old resident from filming due the risk of “reputational damage to the authority”
Keighley Town Council blocked residents filming as it would amount to a “breach of standing orders”
Bexley Council said audio and visual filming would breach its “agreed protocol”
Stamford Town Council has placed a ban on journalists tweeting from meetings due to the risk of them “not accurately portraying a debate”
a blogger in Huntingdonshire was removed by police for filming, and has advised fellow bloggers to “be prepared for the police to be called and the possibility of arrest” if they try to film or report council meetings

A small number of councils are blocking filming because they want to suppress independent reporting, just as some councils are clinging to their town hall Pravdas. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will whither. Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers.

Did you read that Clowncillors- AN ABUSE OF STATE POWERS!!!!!!!!
Oh Dear KTC! Embarrassed once again on a national level. From a press release bu Eric Pickles on Gov.UK today- In June, Mr Pickles published clear guidance to councils asking them to open up to overt filming and social media. This builds on the rights to attend council meetings that were introduced by Margaret Thatcher in 1960, following a Private Members’ Bill in her maiden speech to Parliament. However, since June, some councils are still continuing to oppose an independent press: Wirral Council has said filming a planning committee would compromise “health and safety” Tower Hamlets Council barred a 71 year old resident from filming due the risk of “reputational damage to the authority” Keighley Town Council blocked residents filming as it would amount to a “breach of standing orders” Bexley Council said audio and visual filming would breach its “agreed protocol” Stamford Town Council has placed a ban on journalists tweeting from meetings due to the risk of them “not accurately portraying a debate” a blogger in Huntingdonshire was removed by police for filming, and has advised fellow bloggers to “be prepared for the police to be called and the possibility of arrest” if they try to film or report council meetings A small number of councils are blocking filming because they want to suppress independent reporting, just as some councils are clinging to their town hall Pravdas. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will whither. Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers. Did you read that Clowncillors- AN ABUSE OF STATE POWERS!!!!!!!! Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

10:25am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Oh Dear KTC!
Embarrassed once again on a national level.
From a press release bu Eric Pickles on Gov.UK today-
In June, Mr Pickles published clear guidance to councils asking them to open up to overt filming and social media. This builds on the rights to attend council meetings that were introduced by Margaret Thatcher in 1960, following a Private Members’ Bill in her maiden speech to Parliament.

However, since June, some councils are still continuing to oppose an independent press:

Wirral Council has said filming a planning committee would compromise “health and safety”
Tower Hamlets Council barred a 71 year old resident from filming due the risk of “reputational damage to the authority”
Keighley Town Council blocked residents filming as it would amount to a “breach of standing orders”
Bexley Council said audio and visual filming would breach its “agreed protocol”
Stamford Town Council has placed a ban on journalists tweeting from meetings due to the risk of them “not accurately portraying a debate”
a blogger in Huntingdonshire was removed by police for filming, and has advised fellow bloggers to “be prepared for the police to be called and the possibility of arrest” if they try to film or report council meetings

A small number of councils are blocking filming because they want to suppress independent reporting, just as some councils are clinging to their town hall Pravdas. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will whither. Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers.

Did you read that Clowncillors- AN ABUSE OF STATE POWERS!!!!!!!!

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell
Oh Dear KTC! Embarrassed once again on a national level. From a press release bu Eric Pickles on Gov.UK today- In June, Mr Pickles published clear guidance to councils asking them to open up to overt filming and social media. This builds on the rights to attend council meetings that were introduced by Margaret Thatcher in 1960, following a Private Members’ Bill in her maiden speech to Parliament. However, since June, some councils are still continuing to oppose an independent press: Wirral Council has said filming a planning committee would compromise “health and safety” Tower Hamlets Council barred a 71 year old resident from filming due the risk of “reputational damage to the authority” Keighley Town Council blocked residents filming as it would amount to a “breach of standing orders” Bexley Council said audio and visual filming would breach its “agreed protocol” Stamford Town Council has placed a ban on journalists tweeting from meetings due to the risk of them “not accurately portraying a debate” a blogger in Huntingdonshire was removed by police for filming, and has advised fellow bloggers to “be prepared for the police to be called and the possibility of arrest” if they try to film or report council meetings A small number of councils are blocking filming because they want to suppress independent reporting, just as some councils are clinging to their town hall Pravdas. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will whither. Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers. Did you read that Clowncillors- AN ABUSE OF STATE POWERS!!!!!!!! Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

11:07am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

This is taken from the recent CPALC (Communities, Parish And Local Councils) newsletter...

Are some town councils being hijacked?

Town and parish councils share the same legal framework which is very different to that of district and county councils. Yet we continue to see the invasion of wholly illegal practices into some town councils. In particular the self aggrandizement of having leaders and management committees.


Hmmm!

Tick Tock Clowncillors
This is taken from the recent CPALC (Communities, Parish And Local Councils) newsletter... Are some town councils being hijacked? Town and parish councils share the same legal framework which is very different to that of district and county councils. Yet we continue to see the invasion of wholly illegal practices into some town councils. In particular the self aggrandizement of having leaders and management committees. Hmmm! Tick Tock Clowncillors Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

11:10am Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

And yet more from CPALC...

Are some standing orders worth the paper they're written on?

Frequently we see searches for “council rules” or “parish council constitution” in the minds of many this ubiquitous catch-all document appears to have become synonymous with a town or parish council constitution.

The one thing that standing orders are not is a constitution. They should of course purely cover the conduct of the council's meetings to ensure fair debate and good conduct. This is rarely the case. There is no legal requirement for standing orders. The legislation states that a council may order its own business.

Regardless of the Trolls, Truth Will Out!

Tick Tock
Simon Mitchell
And yet more from CPALC... Are some standing orders worth the paper they're written on? Frequently we see searches for “council rules” or “parish council constitution” in the minds of many this ubiquitous catch-all document appears to have become synonymous with a town or parish council constitution. The one thing that standing orders are not is a constitution. They should of course purely cover the conduct of the council's meetings to ensure fair debate and good conduct. This is rarely the case. There is no legal requirement for standing orders. The legislation states that a council may order its own business. Regardless of the Trolls, Truth Will Out! Tick Tock Simon Mitchell Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

12:58pm Thu 22 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

I would go as far as to suggest that the "Trolls" feeding on any given subject online are far outnumbered by another popular internet phenomenon... the passionate amateur crusader . From Area 51, to 9/11... via Roswell, New Mexico... the Kennedy Assassinations... Chem-Trails... The Matrix... The Surrey Panther... Nessie... Chupacabra and Bigfoot. And the only thing more certain and definite than their rabidly defended opinions, is the fact that anyone who even slightly disagrees with them for whatever reason WILL be referred to as a TROLL or will be accused of working for or being in league with "THE MAN", to prevent "THE TRUTH" reaching "THE PEOPLE"...

They eventually discover that they have been so rabid and inflexible that "THE PEOPLE" all "STOPPED LISTENING" quite some time ago, because they "DON'T CARE" and have all logged off and "GONE OUTSIDE"
I would go as far as to suggest that the "Trolls" feeding on any given subject online are far outnumbered by another popular internet phenomenon... the passionate amateur crusader . From Area 51, to 9/11... via Roswell, New Mexico... the Kennedy Assassinations... Chem-Trails... The Matrix... The Surrey Panther... Nessie... Chupacabra and Bigfoot. And the only thing more certain and definite than their rabidly defended opinions, is the fact that anyone who even slightly disagrees with them for whatever reason WILL be referred to as a TROLL or will be accused of working for or being in league with "THE MAN", to prevent "THE TRUTH" reaching "THE PEOPLE"... They eventually discover that they have been so rabid and inflexible that "THE PEOPLE" all "STOPPED LISTENING" quite some time ago, because they "DON'T CARE" and have all logged off and "GONE OUTSIDE" Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: -1

1:19pm Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead.
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." - Margaret Mead. Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

1:33pm Thu 22 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

"You can't fix every problem, but what you can fix, you must." --- Bono
"You can't fix every problem, but what you can fix, you must." --- Bono Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

3:14pm Thu 22 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Always a 708 Skinhead, you make mention of the lowlife of human society, the ‘troll’. This species has always been around and will be with the world until the end. As you are aware, the ‘troll’ is not confined to the Keighley Town Council ménage containing bullies, liars, convicted thieves, egotist, the list continues. There are a few people in the KTC who fight for the return of standards that have been sold down the river in possible exchange of expected public kudos, and will use all within their evil power to achieve the ‘reputation’ which was tainted long ago, and which has been reduced to scorn, ridicule, and loathing.
Basically the ‘troll’ mentality you talk about, Always a 708 Skinhead, has the feelings of total inferiority, greed, and a self-indulgence which blinds the ‘troll’ mentality to truth, honor, chivalry and civility and the sadness is that they are not aware. Life has bypassed them!
David Samuels
Always a 708 Skinhead, you make mention of the lowlife of human society, the ‘troll’. This species has always been around and will be with the world until the end. As you are aware, the ‘troll’ is not confined to the Keighley Town Council ménage containing bullies, liars, convicted thieves, egotist, the list continues. There are a few people in the KTC who fight for the return of standards that have been sold down the river in possible exchange of expected public kudos, and will use all within their evil power to achieve the ‘reputation’ which was tainted long ago, and which has been reduced to scorn, ridicule, and loathing. Basically the ‘troll’ mentality you talk about, Always a 708 Skinhead, has the feelings of total inferiority, greed, and a self-indulgence which blinds the ‘troll’ mentality to truth, honor, chivalry and civility and the sadness is that they are not aware. Life has bypassed them! David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 1

3:51pm Thu 22 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

That a group of dedicated people are prepared to bring accountability and openness to K.T.C should be applauded and supported.
That a group of dedicated people are prepared to bring accountability and openness to K.T.C should be applauded and supported. Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 3

7:59pm Thu 22 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

Well being considered a troll does afford one the opportunity to pose a question a second time... (Seeing as I suspect that personal vendetta features heavily in SOME people's crusade) when the small group of dedicated people have exposed the kitchen sink corruption and brought about the downfall and removal of the current KTC, what then?

What will we replace it with that is 100% guaranteed to be open and honest and accountable? Does not the very nature of what we expect these people to do, coupled with the fact that you can't please all the people all the time, mean that it's likely any replacement will eventually end up just as closed and secretive? "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" as the French quite correctly say... It's the nature of the beast. This is politics, after all. Ok, it's the garden shed variety as opposed to the carpeted corridors of Whitehall, but it's still the same animal. All politicians are, by their very nature, professional liars. It's what they are paid to do. They will be expected to make decisions that are undoubtedly going to upset half of the people they represent, and will as a result, play whatever cards they have close to the chest, due to the fact that the good of the people always comes a poor second to retaining the position and the power for as long as possible. Yes, I applaud the people fighting for truth and openness but what difference will it make in the long run if all they manage to do is replace one set of pantomime villains with another set of pantomime villains? Isn't it more the case that the system is busted at a fundamental level... if all it achieves is the transformation of good people who want to make a difference into people who only care about hanging on to their jobs by bullying, lying and covering up ineptitude? Is there anyone here who, hand on heart, actually believes that any of the current KTC stood for election HOPING that they'd get to lie and bully and whitewash? Really? I suspect that they all had at least some high moral hopes at first. Rather than paint them as pariahs... lets ask ourselves HOW and WHY they ended up as pariahs... then try to change THAT.
Well being considered a troll does afford one the opportunity to pose a question a second time... (Seeing as I suspect that personal vendetta features heavily in SOME people's crusade) when the small group of dedicated people have exposed the kitchen sink corruption and brought about the downfall and removal of the current KTC, what then? What will we replace it with that is 100% guaranteed to be open and honest and accountable? Does not the very nature of what we expect these people to do, coupled with the fact that you can't please all the people all the time, mean that it's likely any replacement will eventually end up just as closed and secretive? "Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" as the French quite correctly say... It's the nature of the beast. This is politics, after all. Ok, it's the garden shed variety as opposed to the carpeted corridors of Whitehall, but it's still the same animal. All politicians are, by their very nature, professional liars. It's what they are paid to do. They will be expected to make decisions that are undoubtedly going to upset half of the people they represent, and will as a result, play whatever cards they have close to the chest, due to the fact that the good of the people always comes a poor second to retaining the position and the power for as long as possible. Yes, I applaud the people fighting for truth and openness but what difference will it make in the long run if all they manage to do is replace one set of pantomime villains with another set of pantomime villains? Isn't it more the case that the system is busted at a fundamental level... if all it achieves is the transformation of good people who want to make a difference into people who only care about hanging on to their jobs by bullying, lying and covering up ineptitude? Is there anyone here who, hand on heart, actually believes that any of the current KTC stood for election HOPING that they'd get to lie and bully and whitewash? Really? I suspect that they all had at least some high moral hopes at first. Rather than paint them as pariahs... lets ask ourselves HOW and WHY they ended up as pariahs... then try to change THAT. Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 1

11:59pm Thu 22 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

I posed the 'what next' question several times in the past 8B, it never gets answered. Its an interesting question. Let's suppose Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and old tick tock over there get their wish and the entire KTC ate deposed over night, What then? Hold new elections? There are though only a limited number of folk who, let's face it, can be bothered, that's how we ended up with the current shower! Step forward our local heroes, Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and tick tock to save the day? Would Keighley be any better off?
I posed the 'what next' question several times in the past 8B, it never gets answered. Its an interesting question. Let's suppose Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and old tick tock over there get their wish and the entire KTC ate deposed over night, What then? Hold new elections? There are though only a limited number of folk who, let's face it, can be bothered, that's how we ended up with the current shower! Step forward our local heroes, Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and tick tock to save the day? Would Keighley be any better off? Little Green Man
  • Score: -1

7:40am Fri 23 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

Looking around the country it is clear to see that out of the majority of town, parish, and district councils the majority operate responsibly and exercise fiscal prudence. If the majority can do this, then those town, parish and district councils that do not have no defence whatsoever. If a council goes bad then it is due to the council, not the system, or the system would turn all councils bad.

“There are currently 8,900 parish councils and 70,000 elected parish councillors in England, covering 90 per cent of the country. Although small in size, they perform key functions in their local communities, such as managing parks and allotments, maintaining community halls and investing in community transport projects.”
http://www.govtoday.
co.uk/local-governme
nt-news/19-economic-
growth/217-blears-ne
xt-steps-in-deliveri
ng-parish-power

I have not read that 8,900 parish councils and 70,000 councillors are in the same position as K.T.C. So we have overwhelming evidence to show that the system does work. Therefore a council failing is due to the council and not the system.


So what do we replace a large dysfunction and incompetent town council with. We replace it with smaller more accountable and fiscally responsible parish councils.

Tick Tock
Looking around the country it is clear to see that out of the majority of town, parish, and district councils the majority operate responsibly and exercise fiscal prudence. If the majority can do this, then those town, parish and district councils that do not have no defence whatsoever. If a council goes bad then it is due to the council, not the system, or the system would turn all councils bad. “There are currently 8,900 parish councils and 70,000 elected parish councillors in England, covering 90 per cent of the country. Although small in size, they perform key functions in their local communities, such as managing parks and allotments, maintaining community halls and investing in community transport projects.” http://www.govtoday. co.uk/local-governme nt-news/19-economic- growth/217-blears-ne xt-steps-in-deliveri ng-parish-power I have not read that 8,900 parish councils and 70,000 councillors are in the same position as K.T.C. So we have overwhelming evidence to show that the system does work. Therefore a council failing is due to the council and not the system. So what do we replace a large dysfunction and incompetent town council with. We replace it with smaller more accountable and fiscally responsible parish councils. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 1

8:07am Fri 23 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Behind the 8 Ball,
Firstly, thankyou for adding your comments which are of some relevance to the subject at hand and doing so in a reasonable and civil manner.

The points you raise are indeed interesting ones and ones which I think should be discussed and debated.
I hope these pages can be used for such.
So far, any attempts to open discussions with KTC have been met with deflection or simply silence.

You ask the question-
"What will we replace it with that is 100% guaranteed to be open and honest and accountable?"

A very good question.
It is clear from your comments that you have a good understanding of how things work, for want of a better phrase "that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely."

So what's the point? Why bother? As you rightly say,-
" Does not the very nature of what we expect these people to do, coupled with the fact that you can't please all the people all the time, mean that it's likely any replacement will eventually end up just as closed and secretive?"

While I cannot dispute what you have so aptly pointed out, I would like to explain a little about the aims of the group "Cavetown" and the reasoning behind it.

Several months ago a few people noticed a few irregularities occurring at KTC.
These were questioned and the responses were found to be either insufficient, misleading or wrong. Often, questions were simply ignored.

This led to some of us looking further into what powers and responsibilities a Town Council actually has.

The results were both astounding and disturbing.

Right now, as the Law stands, a town or parish council is, for all intents and purposes, responsible to no-one.
The Law basically says that they are responsible to the electorate.

Fair enough. Or is it?

When actions and situations were uncovered by members of Cavetown, which clearly showed that KTC was acting beyond its powers (ultra vires), and was ignoring guidelines and regulations, what we quickly found was that there was very little we could do about it.
Unlike District Councils which are strictly regulated and have an ombudsman to whom you can report your issues or concerns and who must cap their council tax rise to 3% or call a referendum, Town and Parish council are pretty much self regulating.

Probably this was not too much to be concerned with in the past. After all, their responsibilities amounted to little more than the control of allotments.
The problem is that now under the Localism Act 2012, these councils now have greatly increased powers, powers which can as a consequence affect the lives of those who they govern much more significantly than ever before.
Due to an oversight in the introduction of this Act, it has left a loophole where councils such as KTC enjoy a certain amount of impunity.
So we are left with unlimited powers to spend, unlimited power to raise the council tax precept and no regulatory body with whom the electorate can raise their concerns.
Due to many of the issues found to be at fault at KTC, and which are established and proven by their own records ( or lack there of) then, truly, Absolute Power has indeed Corrupted Absolutely.

So what should we do about it?
Nothing? Simply say "Oh well, they are all the same and nothing can be done.

You end your posting with the comments-
" Rather than paint them as pariahs... lets ask ourselves HOW and WHY they ended up as pariahs... then try to change THAT."

I 100% agree with you here Behind the 8 Ball.
That is exactly what Cavetown Council is attempting to do.
While much of what appears in the public realm, social media and the press, does get written up with comments such as "Council Critics" or " fierce opponents of the council", this is just what those who report choose to print. (Conflicts sells papers).

KTC is a symptom and not the cause, the problem is much deeper.
The Law needs to be changed.
Town and Parish Councils need to be, at the very least brought into line with district councils.

We have managed to get the attention of Kris Hopkins MP who has seen the value in our cause.
He is fully aware that many members of Cavetown hold no favour with his political leanings, yet he has thrown his support behind what we are doing.
He attempted to introduce a Bill into the House of Commons regarding the subject. (The Bill was postponed due to a lack of time at the end of the last sitting of parliament).

We have contacted Eric Pickles MP regarding our concerns, and there are several public comments from him which stand testimony to the fact that our groups voice is not falling on deaf ears.

And now we have started a petition calling for Openness and Transparency at KTC.

All this in a little over six months Behind the Eight Ball...
We know HOW, we know WHY they became pariahs and we are in the process of trying to change THAT!

Hopefully, for all involved, in doing this, we can bring about change and in doing so we can deter
" any replacement will eventually end up just as closed and secretive?"
Or at the very least have a process by which they can be held to account and if required, reprimanded for their actions.

While I am under no illusion that the above comments will change your mind Behind the Eight Ball, all I do ask of you is more of the type of comments you have made which have prompted this response.

A good healthy debate regarding this subject is definitely overdue and what is needed is level headed, considered discussion from all involved.

I do realise that this post does not address all the issues that you raised, but lets be honest here BT8B, it has gone on long enough already.

I look forward to continuing this discussion with you over the coming months..

Tick Tock

Simon Mitchell









I
Behind the 8 Ball, Firstly, thankyou for adding your comments which are of some relevance to the subject at hand and doing so in a reasonable and civil manner. The points you raise are indeed interesting ones and ones which I think should be discussed and debated. I hope these pages can be used for such. So far, any attempts to open discussions with KTC have been met with deflection or simply silence. You ask the question- "What will we replace it with that is 100% guaranteed to be open and honest and accountable?" A very good question. It is clear from your comments that you have a good understanding of how things work, for want of a better phrase "that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." So what's the point? Why bother? As you rightly say,- " Does not the very nature of what we expect these people to do, coupled with the fact that you can't please all the people all the time, mean that it's likely any replacement will eventually end up just as closed and secretive?" While I cannot dispute what you have so aptly pointed out, I would like to explain a little about the aims of the group "Cavetown" and the reasoning behind it. Several months ago a few people noticed a few irregularities occurring at KTC. These were questioned and the responses were found to be either insufficient, misleading or wrong. Often, questions were simply ignored. This led to some of us looking further into what powers and responsibilities a Town Council actually has. The results were both astounding and disturbing. Right now, as the Law stands, a town or parish council is, for all intents and purposes, responsible to no-one. The Law basically says that they are responsible to the electorate. Fair enough. Or is it? When actions and situations were uncovered by members of Cavetown, which clearly showed that KTC was acting beyond its powers (ultra vires), and was ignoring guidelines and regulations, what we quickly found was that there was very little we could do about it. Unlike District Councils which are strictly regulated and have an ombudsman to whom you can report your issues or concerns and who must cap their council tax rise to 3% or call a referendum, Town and Parish council are pretty much self regulating. Probably this was not too much to be concerned with in the past. After all, their responsibilities amounted to little more than the control of allotments. The problem is that now under the Localism Act 2012, these councils now have greatly increased powers, powers which can as a consequence affect the lives of those who they govern much more significantly than ever before. Due to an oversight in the introduction of this Act, it has left a loophole where councils such as KTC enjoy a certain amount of impunity. So we are left with unlimited powers to spend, unlimited power to raise the council tax precept and no regulatory body with whom the electorate can raise their concerns. Due to many of the issues found to be at fault at KTC, and which are established and proven by their own records ( or lack there of) then, truly, Absolute Power has indeed Corrupted Absolutely. So what should we do about it? Nothing? Simply say "Oh well, they are all the same and nothing can be done. You end your posting with the comments- " Rather than paint them as pariahs... lets ask ourselves HOW and WHY they ended up as pariahs... then try to change THAT." I 100% agree with you here Behind the 8 Ball. That is exactly what Cavetown Council is attempting to do. While much of what appears in the public realm, social media and the press, does get written up with comments such as "Council Critics" or " fierce opponents of the council", this is just what those who report choose to print. (Conflicts sells papers). KTC is a symptom and not the cause, the problem is much deeper. The Law needs to be changed. Town and Parish Councils need to be, at the very least brought into line with district councils. We have managed to get the attention of Kris Hopkins MP who has seen the value in our cause. He is fully aware that many members of Cavetown hold no favour with his political leanings, yet he has thrown his support behind what we are doing. He attempted to introduce a Bill into the House of Commons regarding the subject. (The Bill was postponed due to a lack of time at the end of the last sitting of parliament). We have contacted Eric Pickles MP regarding our concerns, and there are several public comments from him which stand testimony to the fact that our groups voice is not falling on deaf ears. And now we have started a petition calling for Openness and Transparency at KTC. All this in a little over six months Behind the Eight Ball... We know HOW, we know WHY they became pariahs and we are in the process of trying to change THAT! Hopefully, for all involved, in doing this, we can bring about change and in doing so we can deter " any replacement will eventually end up just as closed and secretive?" Or at the very least have a process by which they can be held to account and if required, reprimanded for their actions. While I am under no illusion that the above comments will change your mind Behind the Eight Ball, all I do ask of you is more of the type of comments you have made which have prompted this response. A good healthy debate regarding this subject is definitely overdue and what is needed is level headed, considered discussion from all involved. I do realise that this post does not address all the issues that you raised, but lets be honest here BT8B, it has gone on long enough already. I look forward to continuing this discussion with you over the coming months.. Tick Tock Simon Mitchell I Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 2

8:09am Fri 23 Aug 13

nannatyke says...

Wanting your town council to be transparent and honest should be a right. We shouldn't have to ask, beg, petition or plead. It is fundamental to the democratic process. But here, in Keighley, we are having to do just that. This year they have nearly £700,000 of our money and what do we get? Very little!. Yes I know we have a lovely town hall square But £700K should be doing so much more for our town. Daily it now seems the Keighley Town Councillors bring shame upon our town and disgrace upon themselves. Some would answer the question of what would you replace them with, by saying don't replace them at all, just get rid of the council. What is its purpose, why do we need to give them all them money for very little in return, why are they so secretive? Smaller Parish Council's, I have to say, would be a lot more accountable. Only yesterday the Secretary of State once again had to refer to the heavy handedness, of Keighley Councillors, in avoiding transparency and openness.
https://www.gov.uk/g
overnment/news/eric-
pickles-opens-up-pla
nning-appeals-and-la
ys-down-challenge
"Keighley Town Council blocked residents filming as it would amount to a “breach of standing orders”
Keighley Town Council stopped a council meeting when a group of pensioners started to film the meeting and called in the police who escorted the 11 residents from the town hall (BBC News Online, 5 July 2013). Officials argued allowing filming would be a “breach of Standing Orders” (Telegraph and Argus, 18 July 2013)
Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers.
An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will wither"
Wanting your town council to be transparent and honest should be a right. We shouldn't have to ask, beg, petition or plead. It is fundamental to the democratic process. But here, in Keighley, we are having to do just that. This year they have nearly £700,000 of our money and what do we get? Very little!. Yes I know we have a lovely town hall square But £700K should be doing so much more for our town. Daily it now seems the Keighley Town Councillors bring shame upon our town and disgrace upon themselves. Some would answer the question of what would you replace them with, by saying don't replace them at all, just get rid of the council. What is its purpose, why do we need to give them all them money for very little in return, why are they so secretive? Smaller Parish Council's, I have to say, would be a lot more accountable. Only yesterday the Secretary of State once again had to refer to the heavy handedness, of Keighley Councillors, in avoiding transparency and openness. https://www.gov.uk/g overnment/news/eric- pickles-opens-up-pla nning-appeals-and-la ys-down-challenge "Keighley Town Council blocked residents filming as it would amount to a “breach of standing orders” Keighley Town Council stopped a council meeting when a group of pensioners started to film the meeting and called in the police who escorted the 11 residents from the town hall (BBC News Online, 5 July 2013). Officials argued allowing filming would be a “breach of Standing Orders” (Telegraph and Argus, 18 July 2013) Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will wither" nannatyke
  • Score: 2

10:32am Fri 23 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

Hmmm, not sure there isn't a little contradiction in there somewhere, 708.

You provide facts and figures to demonstrate how many councils are fine so it must be the people... "I have not read that 8,900 parish councils and 70,000 councillors are in the same position as K.T.C. So we have overwhelming evidence to show that the system does work. Therefore a council failing is due to the council and not the system."

Then a lengthy post about how you're trying to change the system cos the system is at fault... "KTC is a symptom and not the cause, the problem is much deeper. The Law needs to be changed. "

You can't have your cake and eat it...

As for the benefits of smaller accountable parish councils, what you end up with is several fights in several small rooms... instead of one fight in a big room. Or do Cavetown believe that human nature has changed so much that because its MORE devolved, people will suddenly agree on everything? I doubt that... from the first time that some caveman stood up and said "I say we move further up the river 'cos there's more berries and it's further away from the bears"... there has always been someone willing to stand up and produce a stream of facts and figures to prove that "actually a recent study of berries by Og and Ug shows that they consistently grow more abundantly in the LOWER valley and that actually bears actually prefer high ground and narrow rivers so it's a bad idea and I can prove it actually"

As soon as you put someone in charge... you create an opposition. Or do you expect parish councils will mean everyone in the district will all end up sitting round a fire singing ging-gang-goolie and sharing a pasty?
Hmmm, not sure there isn't a little contradiction in there somewhere, 708. You provide facts and figures to demonstrate how many councils are fine so it must be the people... "I have not read that 8,900 parish councils and 70,000 councillors are in the same position as K.T.C. So we have overwhelming evidence to show that the system does work. Therefore a council failing is due to the council and not the system." Then a lengthy post about how you're trying to change the system cos the system is at fault... "KTC is a symptom and not the cause, the problem is much deeper. The Law needs to be changed. " You can't have your cake and eat it... As for the benefits of smaller accountable parish councils, what you end up with is several fights in several small rooms... instead of one fight in a big room. Or do Cavetown believe that human nature has changed so much that because its MORE devolved, people will suddenly agree on everything? I doubt that... from the first time that some caveman stood up and said "I say we move further up the river 'cos there's more berries and it's further away from the bears"... there has always been someone willing to stand up and produce a stream of facts and figures to prove that "actually a recent study of berries by Og and Ug shows that they consistently grow more abundantly in the LOWER valley and that actually bears actually prefer high ground and narrow rivers so it's a bad idea and I can prove it actually" As soon as you put someone in charge... you create an opposition. Or do you expect parish councils will mean everyone in the district will all end up sitting round a fire singing ging-gang-goolie and sharing a pasty? Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 1

11:02am Fri 23 Aug 13

Little Green Man says...

I posed the 'what next' question several times in the past 8B, it never gets answered. Its an interesting question. Let's suppose Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and old tick tock over there get their wish and the entire KTC ate deposed over night, What then? Hold new elections? There are though only a limited number of folk who, let's face it, can be bothered, that's how we ended up with the current shower! Step forward our local heroes, Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and tick tock to save the day? Would Keighley be any better off?
I posed the 'what next' question several times in the past 8B, it never gets answered. Its an interesting question. Let's suppose Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and old tick tock over there get their wish and the entire KTC ate deposed over night, What then? Hold new elections? There are though only a limited number of folk who, let's face it, can be bothered, that's how we ended up with the current shower! Step forward our local heroes, Dave, Graham, NannaTyke and tick tock to save the day? Would Keighley be any better off? Little Green Man
  • Score: -2

11:08am Fri 23 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Far from a contradiction BT8B, I think that the separate posts from separate people serve to enforce the same view.
The idea behind the Localism Act, I believe is inherently a good one, more power given to local councils rather than leaving it up to central government to make the decisions, after all, who better to decide what is best for Keighley or other areas, than the people that live and work there everyday.
The problem lies with the interpretation of these powers and what occurs if these powers are abused.
AS recent as yesterday, Eric Pickles released a statement which names Keighley and includes the quote-
A small number of councils are blocking filming because they want to suppress independent reporting, just as some councils are clinging to their town hall Pravdas. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will wither. Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers.

Note the term- abusing state powers.
This is where the problems arise.
Powers given with good intention, being abused.

As for your comments regarding smaller Parish Councils, personally I have no problem with your point of view. As you mention since time immemorial once you have leadership, natural order will create opposition, fair point. Would smaller parish councils fair any better that KTC ( a town council which by its own admission is larger than many district councils), I honestly don't know.
Good point for discussion though BT8B.

One thing you have to realise is that the members of Cavetown are not a unified bunch of politically motivated "swivel eyed loons" with the same idea's about what is the best for Keighley.
The only thing most of the group have in common is a very clear sense of what they know is NOT the best for Keighley.

Most, if not all, believe that the way forward that will best serve the interests of Keighley, is if more people express their views and add their input.

To believe that we know better than KTC and have all the correct answers would only lead us down the same path which KTC is now stumbling.

One thing which all of Cavetown agrees on is that the way forward is one which must be done with honesty, openness and transparency, preferably with as much public input as possible.

The words you are adding to this blog are as important to that process as anything that either I or any other supporter of Cavetown have to offer.
Far from a contradiction BT8B, I think that the separate posts from separate people serve to enforce the same view. The idea behind the Localism Act, I believe is inherently a good one, more power given to local councils rather than leaving it up to central government to make the decisions, after all, who better to decide what is best for Keighley or other areas, than the people that live and work there everyday. The problem lies with the interpretation of these powers and what occurs if these powers are abused. AS recent as yesterday, Eric Pickles released a statement which names Keighley and includes the quote- A small number of councils are blocking filming because they want to suppress independent reporting, just as some councils are clinging to their town hall Pravdas. An independent local press and robust public scrutiny is essential for a healthy local democracy: without the sunlight of transparency, the flowering of localism will wither. Heavy-handed councils who call the police to suppress freedom of speech are abusing state powers. Note the term- abusing state powers. This is where the problems arise. Powers given with good intention, being abused. As for your comments regarding smaller Parish Councils, personally I have no problem with your point of view. As you mention since time immemorial once you have leadership, natural order will create opposition, fair point. Would smaller parish councils fair any better that KTC ( a town council which by its own admission is larger than many district councils), I honestly don't know. Good point for discussion though BT8B. One thing you have to realise is that the members of Cavetown are not a unified bunch of politically motivated "swivel eyed loons" with the same idea's about what is the best for Keighley. The only thing most of the group have in common is a very clear sense of what they know is NOT the best for Keighley. Most, if not all, believe that the way forward that will best serve the interests of Keighley, is if more people express their views and add their input. To believe that we know better than KTC and have all the correct answers would only lead us down the same path which KTC is now stumbling. One thing which all of Cavetown agrees on is that the way forward is one which must be done with honesty, openness and transparency, preferably with as much public input as possible. The words you are adding to this blog are as important to that process as anything that either I or any other supporter of Cavetown have to offer. Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 3

2:46pm Fri 23 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

The posting covering the 8,900 parish councils and 70,00 councillors was done by myself. That the majority of these councils and councillors are not facing the same situation as K.T.C is evidence that the present system does work. The fact and figure speak for themselves.


What is evident, and I fully accept this point, is that the present system does not address the issue of errant councils as it was set up with having only correctly acting councils in mind. That K.T.C has now caused a group of individuals to form Cavetown Council and take this issue to central government is still not the fault of the system as such, it is the fault of K.T.C and several other councils, that have created the need to have these issue addressed. Therefore K.T.C has no one else to blame for the situation it finds itself in but itself. And I reiterate here the words of Simon in that Cavetown Council does not claim to have all the answers to all the problems, but it has uncovered existing problems which it is not ignoring and is pressing for these problems to be resolved.


As to having smaller councils, therefore smaller fights in smaller rooms. It would be naïve to say this would never happen, human nature shows that it does and will continue to do so. However, having smaller councils will mean smaller budgets and smaller ambitions. And we need to add here besides the smaller, more open and most importantly, ACCOUNTABLE. If councils were more open and accountable would those errant councils have acted in the way they have?

The way K.T.C has dealt with the issues raised and those raising these issues is another example of a council digging itself deeper into the mire of it's own making.

And one last point. No matter what system, or what changes you bring in, incompetence will still cause problems, that I am sure we can all agree on.


Tick Tock
The posting covering the 8,900 parish councils and 70,00 councillors was done by myself. That the majority of these councils and councillors are not facing the same situation as K.T.C is evidence that the present system does work. The fact and figure speak for themselves. What is evident, and I fully accept this point, is that the present system does not address the issue of errant councils as it was set up with having only correctly acting councils in mind. That K.T.C has now caused a group of individuals to form Cavetown Council and take this issue to central government is still not the fault of the system as such, it is the fault of K.T.C and several other councils, that have created the need to have these issue addressed. Therefore K.T.C has no one else to blame for the situation it finds itself in but itself. And I reiterate here the words of Simon in that Cavetown Council does not claim to have all the answers to all the problems, but it has uncovered existing problems which it is not ignoring and is pressing for these problems to be resolved. As to having smaller councils, therefore smaller fights in smaller rooms. It would be naïve to say this would never happen, human nature shows that it does and will continue to do so. However, having smaller councils will mean smaller budgets and smaller ambitions. And we need to add here besides the smaller, more open and most importantly, ACCOUNTABLE. If councils were more open and accountable would those errant councils have acted in the way they have? The way K.T.C has dealt with the issues raised and those raising these issues is another example of a council digging itself deeper into the mire of it's own making. And one last point. No matter what system, or what changes you bring in, incompetence will still cause problems, that I am sure we can all agree on. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 1

5:57pm Fri 23 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

Thanks for the compliment, 708... you may call me 8-Ball. As for Cavetown, it's a noble (if ultimately futile) cause... although I suspect that it's also being used as a vehicle for at least one very personal and very bitter vendetta against the actual people on the council, rather than the council's record or behaviour. I'm only seeking an answer (hopefully sensible) to the question of how you clean up the unclean-able.

If I were on the council, I hope and pray that I'd do a better job than the current shower... but would I? Would I Really? For how long, I wonder…

When half the town is baying for my blood cos I've done something they disagree with?... wouldn't I be inclined to just keep the next decision under wraps? maybe spend less time listening to those calling me a w***ker and a bit more time listening to those with a more sympathetic tone who stroke my ego? Wouldn't I be less inclined to get my hand in the air and admit a mistake if I knew I’d be publicly castigated for it in the local press, on the website forums and in every pub from here to Colne?

Who here has the inner strength and self belief to ignore that kind of backlash?... or are we all... like the people on the KTC... human? and subject to the failings of the human condition. Apt to behave in our own best interests when faced with hard questions. After all it's a lesson we all learn at our parents knee... when first caught... lie.

Did you break this?... "No, Sir"
Did you hit your sister?... "No, Dad"
Did you take the last biscuit?... "No, Mum"

We never admit the transgression until we have run out of room to manoeuvre.

Our American cousins have this thing called the constitution, and the idea behind it is if it’s not working, you tear it up and write a new one that addresses the issue and resolves it. A fine ideal, yet we see every day that it’s an idea that only works on paper. Accountability is, unfortunately, also an idea that only works on paper. It is ephemeral. A bright vision that is laudable to chase, but nigh on impossible to implement.

The very situation that makes accountability necessary actually renders it impossible. If you elect leaders, you need watchmen to watch what the leaders do. Who then do you employ to watch the watchmen, to ensure they are not turning a blind eye? How far down that road will you go? All the way to your own front door?

I’m allowed to play Devil’s Advocate, as I have no axe to grind… being a confirmed believer that all politics, local or otherwise, is a contemptible business and that those who want to be elected should automatically be banned from it for just that reason… they want it.

You never achieve change, not in the long term. Given a year or two, the revolutionaries who storm the parliament building crying for equality always end up as corrupt and secretive as those they sought to replace. It’s the nature of things. Power corrupts… always has… always will. No matter who we choose to wield it.

The KTC will eventually fall… either at the ballot box or on their own swords. There will be a lot of smug expressions on a lot of faces when it happens. A lot of “I told you so’s” But when the dust has finally settled, how long will we be afforded the ability to peer into the inner workings of whatever replaces it… before they too start giving each other knowing looks, locking the doors and talking in whispers?

I suspect that it’s self perpetuating… as long as there is a town council, there will be a need for a Cavetown to cry foul.
Thanks for the compliment, 708... you may call me 8-Ball. As for Cavetown, it's a noble (if ultimately futile) cause... although I suspect that it's also being used as a vehicle for at least one very personal and very bitter vendetta against the actual people on the council, rather than the council's record or behaviour. I'm only seeking an answer (hopefully sensible) to the question of how you clean up the unclean-able. If I were on the council, I hope and pray that I'd do a better job than the current shower... but would I? Would I Really? For how long, I wonder… When half the town is baying for my blood cos I've done something they disagree with?... wouldn't I be inclined to just keep the next decision under wraps? maybe spend less time listening to those calling me a w***ker and a bit more time listening to those with a more sympathetic tone who stroke my ego? Wouldn't I be less inclined to get my hand in the air and admit a mistake if I knew I’d be publicly castigated for it in the local press, on the website forums and in every pub from here to Colne? Who here has the inner strength and self belief to ignore that kind of backlash?... or are we all... like the people on the KTC... human? and subject to the failings of the human condition. Apt to behave in our own best interests when faced with hard questions. After all it's a lesson we all learn at our parents knee... when first caught... lie. Did you break this?... "No, Sir" Did you hit your sister?... "No, Dad" Did you take the last biscuit?... "No, Mum" We never admit the transgression until we have run out of room to manoeuvre. Our American cousins have this thing called the constitution, and the idea behind it is if it’s not working, you tear it up and write a new one that addresses the issue and resolves it. A fine ideal, yet we see every day that it’s an idea that only works on paper. Accountability is, unfortunately, also an idea that only works on paper. It is ephemeral. A bright vision that is laudable to chase, but nigh on impossible to implement. The very situation that makes accountability necessary actually renders it impossible. If you elect leaders, you need watchmen to watch what the leaders do. Who then do you employ to watch the watchmen, to ensure they are not turning a blind eye? How far down that road will you go? All the way to your own front door? I’m allowed to play Devil’s Advocate, as I have no axe to grind… being a confirmed believer that all politics, local or otherwise, is a contemptible business and that those who want to be elected should automatically be banned from it for just that reason… they want it. You never achieve change, not in the long term. Given a year or two, the revolutionaries who storm the parliament building crying for equality always end up as corrupt and secretive as those they sought to replace. It’s the nature of things. Power corrupts… always has… always will. No matter who we choose to wield it. The KTC will eventually fall… either at the ballot box or on their own swords. There will be a lot of smug expressions on a lot of faces when it happens. A lot of “I told you so’s” But when the dust has finally settled, how long will we be afforded the ability to peer into the inner workings of whatever replaces it… before they too start giving each other knowing looks, locking the doors and talking in whispers? I suspect that it’s self perpetuating… as long as there is a town council, there will be a need for a Cavetown to cry foul. Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 1

7:40pm Fri 23 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

I understand what your saying 8ball, and to some extent agree with you. That is why it needs legislation brought in so that any divergence from accepted protocols can be dealt with, and more importantly, those individuals who diverge from the accepted protocols can be held to account. This will never eradicate wrong doing, but it will give redress when the wrong has been committed. That at town and parish council level is missing. The majority of town and parish councils operate without many problems so I would not myself be too judgemental of those. A few bad councils should not tar the efforts done by other councils, and we should not be too dismissive of them in my opinion. K.T.C is an example of a council gone wrong, but there are many examples of councils doing it right.

Tick Tock
I understand what your saying 8ball, and to some extent agree with you. That is why it needs legislation brought in so that any divergence from accepted protocols can be dealt with, and more importantly, those individuals who diverge from the accepted protocols can be held to account. This will never eradicate wrong doing, but it will give redress when the wrong has been committed. That at town and parish council level is missing. The majority of town and parish councils operate without many problems so I would not myself be too judgemental of those. A few bad councils should not tar the efforts done by other councils, and we should not be too dismissive of them in my opinion. K.T.C is an example of a council gone wrong, but there are many examples of councils doing it right. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 0

4:03am Sat 24 Aug 13

Always a 708 Skinhead says...

Once again 8Ball, your post shows a level of intelligence and thought in its structure for which I extend to you my gratitude.
On reading your post I find myself in agreement with most, if not all the points you make-

Could some people be using Cavetown for their own motives or personal vendettas?
Quite possibly yes. The aim of the group was to give a voice to the public, we try very hard not to censor the comments expressed in the group and except in the case of occasional requests from obvious spammers or those known to be publicly opposed to our aims, we try to accept any request to join the group.
I have no doubt that we have attracted people who have previous history with KTC, similarly I am well aware that among the silent observers there are those who report back to the KTC hierarchy regarding what is discussed within the group.
But 8Ball is this a reason to disband the group and give up?
For me the answer is no.

Are the failings of the council simply human failings magnified?
Wouldn't we all follow the same path in their shoes?
To put it simply, yes.
Given the same set of circumstances many people who set out with good intent may end up in the same position as so many at KTC.
But therin lies the crux of the issue 8Ball, how did this set of circumstances arise?
If mechanisms were in place which served to halt a course of action which was undemocratic, misleading or an abuse of state powers, would those serving and employed at KTC still find themselves in the position they do now?
I think that if there were clear consequences in place which reprimanded those at fault, then this would serve to inhibit this behaviour. In the event that it fails to do this then the consequences should prevent those who transgress from continuing to act in the same manner.

Is the idea of Accountability an unobtainable dream?
Is the pursuit of this a futile gesture, ultimately doomed to failure?

It could well be 8Ball, only time can answer that one.
But in the meantime, as a father of 2, my actions and behaviour leave long lasting impressions of those who I have the responsibility to raise.
Should I show my children that if things seem too hard, then just give up?
That if a part of the system of society is wrong then they should just accept it?
Is this what the pre union workers should of done?
Is this what the African American slaves should of done?
Is this what homosexuals should of done?
Is this what those who are governed by Town and Parish Councils should do?
In the name of freedom I think it is my duty to show my kids to stand up for what they believe, in this I think actions speak louder than words.
Freedom is not given up over night. It is quietly and slowly chipped away at until one day you find that the word is used to represent the exact opposite of what it means.

Power corrupts and when the revolutionaries gain control they in turn become as bad as those who they replace.
No argument here 8Ball.
But where is the revolution in this scenario?
No-one is calling for a storming of Town Hall. No-one is demanding we throw out the current system and convert to an entirely different process.
We are calling for changes to the current system which will address some areas which are currently open to misuse and abuse.
We are demanding that those who are found to be abusing the system should be held to account.
We have taken every legal option available that we have been able to find, despite strong opposition from KTC, to investigate if those who govern us are doing so in a forthright and democratic way.
Hardly a revolution really 8Ball is it?

Your statement-
"I’m allowed to play Devil’s Advocate, as I have no axe to grind… being a confirmed believer that all politics, local or otherwise, is a contemptible business and that those who want to be elected should automatically be banned from it for just that reason… they want it"
Absolutely spot on, I could of written almost the exact sentiments myself 8Ball, absolutely no argument from me on this point..... except one point, I am perfectly happy to discuss a situation with the Devil's Advocate, if the Devil himself (or herself) is too scared of ashamed to confront me in person then I will battle his or her substitute.
But the comments you are posting do not fill this role 8Ball. The Devil's Advocate is someone who take the position in an argument which is the one opposed to that presented by another. They may not necessarily agree with that viewpoint, but for the sake of discussion they stand to represent it.
Your words here 8Ball do not meet this criteria. You do not defend the actions and behaviour of KTC. You present argument which offers excuses for their methods, reasons for their failures and the futility of fighting it.
Interestingly, all throughout the existence of Cavetown, nobody seems to present argument which defends the council, not even KTC themselves.
In my opinion this is the main reason why Cavetown has lasted so long and continues to gain ever increasing support for it's cause.

In conclusion 8Ball, as I said before, I find it hard to disagree with most of your points. In an earlier post on this thread you finished with the sentence-
They eventually discover that they have been so rabid and inflexible that "THE PEOPLE" all "STOPPED LISTENING" quite some time ago, because they "DON'T CARE" and have all logged off and "GONE OUTSIDE"

Based on much of the posts after this and based on the fact that it is mainly You, Graham and Myself left commenting, if you would allow me to interpret this in a slightly different way-

We are the ones left talking late into the night, long after everyone else lost interest and went to bed.

I have no objection to this, it is a situation I have been in countless times, and is one which I have found to be most valuable in understanding an issue and getting honest and truthful opinions from those involved in the discussion.

So here's to staying up late, well past our bedtime 8Ball, I hope we keep doing it often over the coming months.
Who knows, we may even manage to enjoy it given time. I have already decided to treat your comments with some respect, I hope you may at some point see fit to do the same.

Tick Tock
Once again 8Ball, your post shows a level of intelligence and thought in its structure for which I extend to you my gratitude. On reading your post I find myself in agreement with most, if not all the points you make- Could some people be using Cavetown for their own motives or personal vendettas? Quite possibly yes. The aim of the group was to give a voice to the public, we try very hard not to censor the comments expressed in the group and except in the case of occasional requests from obvious spammers or those known to be publicly opposed to our aims, we try to accept any request to join the group. I have no doubt that we have attracted people who have previous history with KTC, similarly I am well aware that among the silent observers there are those who report back to the KTC hierarchy regarding what is discussed within the group. But 8Ball is this a reason to disband the group and give up? For me the answer is no. Are the failings of the council simply human failings magnified? Wouldn't we all follow the same path in their shoes? To put it simply, yes. Given the same set of circumstances many people who set out with good intent may end up in the same position as so many at KTC. But therin lies the crux of the issue 8Ball, how did this set of circumstances arise? If mechanisms were in place which served to halt a course of action which was undemocratic, misleading or an abuse of state powers, would those serving and employed at KTC still find themselves in the position they do now? I think that if there were clear consequences in place which reprimanded those at fault, then this would serve to inhibit this behaviour. In the event that it fails to do this then the consequences should prevent those who transgress from continuing to act in the same manner. Is the idea of Accountability an unobtainable dream? Is the pursuit of this a futile gesture, ultimately doomed to failure? It could well be 8Ball, only time can answer that one. But in the meantime, as a father of 2, my actions and behaviour leave long lasting impressions of those who I have the responsibility to raise. Should I show my children that if things seem too hard, then just give up? That if a part of the system of society is wrong then they should just accept it? Is this what the pre union workers should of done? Is this what the African American slaves should of done? Is this what homosexuals should of done? Is this what those who are governed by Town and Parish Councils should do? In the name of freedom I think it is my duty to show my kids to stand up for what they believe, in this I think actions speak louder than words. Freedom is not given up over night. It is quietly and slowly chipped away at until one day you find that the word is used to represent the exact opposite of what it means. Power corrupts and when the revolutionaries gain control they in turn become as bad as those who they replace. No argument here 8Ball. But where is the revolution in this scenario? No-one is calling for a storming of Town Hall. No-one is demanding we throw out the current system and convert to an entirely different process. We are calling for changes to the current system which will address some areas which are currently open to misuse and abuse. We are demanding that those who are found to be abusing the system should be held to account. We have taken every legal option available that we have been able to find, despite strong opposition from KTC, to investigate if those who govern us are doing so in a forthright and democratic way. Hardly a revolution really 8Ball is it? Your statement- "I’m allowed to play Devil’s Advocate, as I have no axe to grind… being a confirmed believer that all politics, local or otherwise, is a contemptible business and that those who want to be elected should automatically be banned from it for just that reason… they want it" Absolutely spot on, I could of written almost the exact sentiments myself 8Ball, absolutely no argument from me on this point..... except one point, I am perfectly happy to discuss a situation with the Devil's Advocate, if the Devil himself (or herself) is too scared of ashamed to confront me in person then I will battle his or her substitute. But the comments you are posting do not fill this role 8Ball. The Devil's Advocate is someone who take the position in an argument which is the one opposed to that presented by another. They may not necessarily agree with that viewpoint, but for the sake of discussion they stand to represent it. Your words here 8Ball do not meet this criteria. You do not defend the actions and behaviour of KTC. You present argument which offers excuses for their methods, reasons for their failures and the futility of fighting it. Interestingly, all throughout the existence of Cavetown, nobody seems to present argument which defends the council, not even KTC themselves. In my opinion this is the main reason why Cavetown has lasted so long and continues to gain ever increasing support for it's cause. In conclusion 8Ball, as I said before, I find it hard to disagree with most of your points. In an earlier post on this thread you finished with the sentence- They eventually discover that they have been so rabid and inflexible that "THE PEOPLE" all "STOPPED LISTENING" quite some time ago, because they "DON'T CARE" and have all logged off and "GONE OUTSIDE" Based on much of the posts after this and based on the fact that it is mainly You, Graham and Myself left commenting, if you would allow me to interpret this in a slightly different way- We are the ones left talking late into the night, long after everyone else lost interest and went to bed. I have no objection to this, it is a situation I have been in countless times, and is one which I have found to be most valuable in understanding an issue and getting honest and truthful opinions from those involved in the discussion. So here's to staying up late, well past our bedtime 8Ball, I hope we keep doing it often over the coming months. Who knows, we may even manage to enjoy it given time. I have already decided to treat your comments with some respect, I hope you may at some point see fit to do the same. Tick Tock Always a 708 Skinhead
  • Score: 3

7:23am Sat 24 Aug 13

Graham Forsyth says...

"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - When you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favours - When you see that men get richer by craft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - When you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - You may know that your society is doomed." -- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged", 1957


Many of us I am sure would agree with the above statement, and I am sure many of us would acknowledge the truth in the following words


"The greater the number of laws, the more corrupt the republic." Tacitus

And that is the problem today, corruption, and due to this we have to keep on making laws to try and deal with the corruption. That there will always be corruption is an acknowledged fact and therefore there will always be a need for some to speak out and resist the corruption, and it is to those who are prepared to speak out that society should give thanks. This resistance takes on many forms from a single individual to well organised groups. Cavetown Council is just one of these groups that have down through history made a stand and asked for fairness and justice.

Those six men of the Tollpuddle Martyrs helped change the rights of working people. Then we have Emily Pankhurst of the suffragette movement. Martin Luther King was another noted giant in this field, along with Mahatma Gandhi. What if these people had done nothing, just sat back and accepted whatever they did it would not change anything? When the occasion has been needed individuals and groups have arisen to stand up and demand fairness and justice at all levels. Cavetown Council is doing the same, it is also standing up and asking for fairness and justice, which if attained will, give those who are taxed by town and parish councils the right to hold their councils to account.

That I know for the members of Cavetown Council is worth fighting for.

Tick Tock
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing - When you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favours - When you see that men get richer by craft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you - When you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice - You may know that your society is doomed." -- Ayn Rand, "Atlas Shrugged", 1957 Many of us I am sure would agree with the above statement, and I am sure many of us would acknowledge the truth in the following words "The greater the number of laws, the more corrupt the republic." Tacitus And that is the problem today, corruption, and due to this we have to keep on making laws to try and deal with the corruption. That there will always be corruption is an acknowledged fact and therefore there will always be a need for some to speak out and resist the corruption, and it is to those who are prepared to speak out that society should give thanks. This resistance takes on many forms from a single individual to well organised groups. Cavetown Council is just one of these groups that have down through history made a stand and asked for fairness and justice. Those six men of the Tollpuddle Martyrs helped change the rights of working people. Then we have Emily Pankhurst of the suffragette movement. Martin Luther King was another noted giant in this field, along with Mahatma Gandhi. What if these people had done nothing, just sat back and accepted whatever they did it would not change anything? When the occasion has been needed individuals and groups have arisen to stand up and demand fairness and justice at all levels. Cavetown Council is doing the same, it is also standing up and asking for fairness and justice, which if attained will, give those who are taxed by town and parish councils the right to hold their councils to account. That I know for the members of Cavetown Council is worth fighting for. Tick Tock Graham Forsyth
  • Score: 4

11:55am Sat 24 Aug 13

samuels david says...

Mr Forsyth, Simon Mitchell, and 8Ball, a unanimity that is displayed on this page between you three is welcomed. That the KTC hierarchy could not have years ago seen the sense of utilising the thoughts as expressed here I feel is sad.
I’ve always stated I believe that honest dialog and honest debate without conditions or without the knowledge that the issue has already been decided is the solution for civilised advancement.
In my next issue of Charlie Putzz, private funded booklet, which has been recived with good comments and which is handed out to members of the public and is delivered each week to KTC the Keighle News and to other premises with good footfall etc I intend to make the comments of Mr Forsyth, Simon Mitchell, and 8Ball the main feature.

David Samuels
Mr Forsyth, Simon Mitchell, and 8Ball, a unanimity that is displayed on this page between you three is welcomed. That the KTC hierarchy could not have years ago seen the sense of utilising the thoughts as expressed here I feel is sad. I’ve always stated I believe that honest dialog and honest debate without conditions or without the knowledge that the issue has already been decided is the solution for civilised advancement. In my next issue of Charlie Putzz, private funded booklet, which has been recived with good comments and which is handed out to members of the public and is delivered each week to KTC the Keighle News and to other premises with good footfall etc I intend to make the comments of Mr Forsyth, Simon Mitchell, and 8Ball the main feature. David Samuels samuels david
  • Score: 2

3:21pm Sat 24 Aug 13

Behind_the_8-Ball says...

Unfortunately, I believe this particular virtual speakers corner will shortly be archived by the KN. A pity no one uses the **** forum... that's where we ought to be talking... at least it never drops off the page. Waste of a good resource if you ask me. We could have some good philosophical debate...
Unfortunately, I believe this particular virtual speakers corner will shortly be archived by the KN. A pity no one uses the **** forum... that's where we ought to be talking... at least it never drops off the page. Waste of a good resource if you ask me. We could have some good philosophical debate... Behind_the_8-Ball
  • Score: 2

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